Unlearning conflict avoidance - 11

[MrBond]

Your description of why you think you're doing the way you're doing it is WAYYYY too analytical. I think what you need to do is to start doing things more on impulse and "feeling" rather than being so logical. Sometimes you sound like Mr. Spock when you're describing your emotions when it shouldn't be that thoughtful.

[25yearsmlc]

MLC - I sleep upstairs, in my son's room, next to the central master bedroom.

I don't understand your question: "What message did you get from your childhood or marriage that suggested your worth was based only on meeting other's needs? "

Because the only reason you gave for being alive was your children...being around them and or, providing for them. There have to be other reasons Luke, or you're not living WELL. That was the point of the lifeboat exercises. To stop living FOR OTHERS and live for YOU b/c you are worthy of happiness. Not just for others...

Why be alive? A couple of reasons, these being a mix of (lousy reason) selfishly wanting to enjoy the world,


OMG!! WHY IS "WANTING TO ENJOY THE WORLD" CONSIDERED "SELFISH"???

I had to capitalize that ^^ b/c it's such a basic misunderstanding of why we are here on earth. Such an underlying issue for you in your relationships and how you interact with your family, it's telling but it must be radically adjusted soon.

I'm a believer in God so I say this to you with that in mind. God brought me here, and I feel blessed. It was not with the purpose of suffering alone that I am here.

I have free will and I am free to love, to be loved, & to live life to the fullest. In fact I think that's what God wants for us.

Yes I love others and serve them and it gives me joy.

But I no longer believe all my spare time must be devoted to others to "Deserve" a seat in the lifeboat.
I'd never have done theater or comedy if I felt compelled, as I once did, to use all my spare time for volunteer work. Thank God I went to the EE workshop.

That lifeboat exercise was to demonstrate that WE deserve to be here, to LIVE. Serving others cannot be our only function. That suggests you are not enough, alone, to deserve being here. But you are. You're a child of God just like the rest of us.



then more nobly - but not enough is happening - of doing something good for the world (and this may not include people directly, as in being a teacher or a doctor or caring for people's spirit, but could be something in nature or art or science instead). At the bottom though, I am not worth more than any other person - .

WOW....So much to say, so little time. I will stay basic...

1) who said you had to be worth MORE than others, to live??

2) and YES YOU ARE worth more anyhow, to your family and friends and those at your job,

AND b/c I have clients in jail for doing some very terrible things. They live!

It's obvious and fair to say you offer more to the world than they do.

But frankly, it's not a contest.

My concern is the message you continue to transmit:

You say "I offer nothing more than anyone else so I can just sit here...eating only enough to live, and 'occupying space' b/c that has worked SO WELL FOR ME AND MY FAMILY and that is how I'll approach life...

and my kids have learned that they too, are not anything special b/c heck, I AM NOT ANYTHING SPECIAL...so I'll teach that to my kids by example.

Also I will show my wife that she can do better b/c I am no better than anyone else she could choose..."


I never did find a good answer for why I should be allowed to live, which is frustrating.

IMO, ^^This is a spiritual problem, & a psychological, philosophical one.
I wish you could see how it permeates your relationships. Honestly if my h said he was not worth more than anyone else around, I'd be turned OFF.

It's not arrogant for him to see and feel his worth. It's attractive confidence.


Frankl talks about boredom, here:

"Unlike an animal, man is no longer told by drives and instincts what he must do. And in contrast to man in former times, he is no longer told by traditions and values what he should do. Now, knowing neither what he must do nor what he should do, he sometimes does not even know what he basically wishes to do. Instead, he wishes to do what other people do... or he does what other people wish him to do...


isn't that^^, you?


In this situation when people "loose ground" the old liberal social philosophies also fail. The bitter truth, says Frankl (UCM, p. 21), is that (italics by Frankl)

For too long we have been dreaming a dream from which we are now waking up: the dream that if we just improve the socioeconomic situation of people, everything will be okay, people will become happy. The truth is that as the struggle for survival has subsided, the question has emerged: survival for what? Ever more people today have the means to live, but no meaning to live for.

We now have the "leisure time" For more artistic AND OR altruistic endeavors. Hence the reality that some cultures contributed more than others, b/c some cultures are busy trying to stay alive while others have their basic physical needs met.

I Thank God for having more time for other pursuits. THIS IS NOT A "PROBLEM" for most people. Don't create one. You love music and travel. Stop finding fault in that. Find out what else you love.

In another book (PAE, p.122) Frankl notes:

What threatens contemporary man is the alleged meaningfulness of his life, or, as I call it, the existential vacuum within him. And when does this vacuum open up, when does this so often latent vacuum become manifest? In the state of boredom.

Hence the need to avoid existentialism! It's depressing and fruitless. Stop being stuck and the first step would be to read books on HOW TO BE HAPPIER- and

Not "why should I live? I'm nothing special, so I'll project that to my world..."


Boredom is the main symptom of this illness. To see if society is sick one has just to observe how deeply boredom – in its many forms and manifestations – overflows peoplesí lives. Sometimes it becomes unbearable, and then its companions: addiction, depression and aggression, become the threat not only to the individual but also to society as a whole."

Anyway, that is a long way of saying that bored hedonism is not a good way to live, that I sometimes recognize it in myself, and that I'd like to change it, especially for the kids' sakes.

Luke

When did YOU show your children "hedonistic" pursuits of any kind? I can imagine your melancholy approach is a downer to them, but are you actually filled with ennui and purposelessness,

OR are you simply depressed?

I mean, you have lived in a loveless marriage for so many years and you have been stuck for so long, most people would identify your behaviors as those of a depressed man. Not catatonic, but depressive.

Have you discussed this^^ with your IC? I recommend it. And please read some books that are not so nihilistic.

You remind me of myself in my sophomore year of college (not to be insulting) b/c that was my "be SERIOUS" mode and to be "serious" meant of course, to be sad.

Only superficial people were HAPPY...or so I foolishly, masochistically believed. I wallowed in my melancholy b/c I thought it proved my depth. I was wrong.

[LuckyLuke]

Hola MLC, Bond, Ken, sandi,

apropos hedonism: no, I am not popping chilled grapes into my mouth that my slaves have just picked...

It is more at the French passe-temps idea, how do you fill the void and the time? (answer: by loving, in all its manifestations?) Not helping this is my German background, which has a certain Hans Beinholtz character to it...

I would like to show my kids a positive way of living, with passion, and interest, and kindness, and intelligence, and truth, and strength, and beauty, and ethics, and gentleness, and poetry, and books, and gardens, and creativity, and environmentalism, and righteous anger, etc etc. Does the passion for something come out of our actively assigning it to the something or does it arise more spontaneously? That is, do we decide or is it decided for us?

Action: helped French friend set up a weight lifting machine last night, then hung out, playing music, talking and drinking wine.

Action tonight: there is an interesting sounding lecture on Sicily, in a nearby town, so I'll go there instead of yoga.

Luke

[LuckyLuke]

Ken - yes, the pattern of problems being more in my head than in the world is a repeating theme - thanks for pointing this out - L

[MrBond]

" Not helping this is my German background, which has a certain Hans Beinholtz character to it..."

This is just another excuse you keep coming up with. Bottom line is that it doesn't matter what your heritage, background or genetic makeup is. How you choose to live your life is up to YOU. It is YOUR CHOICE.

"I would like to show my kids a positive way of living, with passion, and interest, and kindness, and intelligence, and truth, and strength, and beauty, and ethics, and gentleness, and poetry, and books, and gardens, and creativity, and environmentalism, and righteous anger, etc etc."

While those are fine, is there anything a little more "masculine" you could show them? I mean, putting together a garden is fine, but didn't you say your W was the one who basically did more of the home construction? THAT is masculine.

"Does the passion for something come out of our actively assigning it to the something or does it arise more spontaneously? That is, do we decide or is it decided for us?"

You're still way over-thinking this. Passion is the drive to do something that you like to do just for the sake of doing it. Evidently gardening is a passion of yours and that's fine. But you have to translate that to all aspects of your life and not let fear stop you.

Start a project that you and your children and do together. Did you ever have them join anything like scouts or sports (team sports and not individual sports like swimming)? Do that with them. Something as simple as kicking a soccer ball together or throwing a frisbee will be fun. My kids and I enjoy playing video games together and going outside just to play tag or tossing a ball around. Your gestures dont' need to be grand ones. Start of small.

[KenF]

Luke
all this fear and anxiety are preventing you from doing anything. the analyzing, the concocting of scenarios, the intricate planning, the endless what-ifs, are all methods of procrastination, they're all designed to keep you from acting on your fears. you over-analyze until the opportunity has expired and then just accept the end results.

ask yourself how often you've created these scenarios of failure, but worked through it anyway only to discover it was nothing like you imagined it would be.

analyzing is helpful to determine what you want, but i believe you know exactly what you want from the beginning.

instead, practice immediate action, and show yourself the outcome will be fine. and by continued practice you'll be able to manage your fear.

[sandi2]

You have mentioned your German background several times, but I fail to see what that has to do with anything.

I agree with what 25mlc said in her post yesterday. To me, it sounds like a spiritual problem. I can't imagine how empty life would be without a faith-based relationship with God. I personally believe man has a spiritual soul and needs that connection with God, in order for his life to have purpose and passion. That is what separates us from the animals.

[ye21]

I agree with what 25mlc said in her post yesterday. To me, it sounds like a spiritual problem. I can't imagine how empty life would be without a faith-based relationship with God. I personally believe man has a spiritual soul and needs that connection with God, in order for his life to have purpose and passion. That is what separates us from the animals.


Thats one of the reasons why most of us are having the problems we are having I totally agree with this affirmation.

[ye21]

As I keep repeating, there are no mistakes only spiritual opportunities for growth...

[ye21]

God as we underestand him.... It doesnt have to be in a religious way, but in a spiritual way to believe that something greater than ourselves is out in the universe....