The only "explanation" is that the person is not thinking clearly, because normal people don't behave that way.
Us LBS's need to keep remembering this, such a simple line with a big message.
ME:51 W:46 M:25 S:22, S:20 Divorced 16/9/15 BD 10/12 W left 12/12 with OW, affair confirmed Nov/12. Dark since 6/13 I"m in a new relationship since Feb 14.
The only "explanation" is that the person is not thinking clearly, because normal people don't behave that way.
Us LBS's need to keep remembering this, such a simple line with a big message.
I generally agree with all this. The only "quibble" ( & it really is just a point of clarification for ME) is this:
Don't blame their fog for your own issues; work on YOU no matter how wacky you think your WAS is.
You have issues to work on. We all do. Don't neglect the "upside" of this whole ordeal, the only upside really, is that WE IMPROVE as people.
Whereas IF you don't do at least that, then this is just a total nightmare. and we have blown our best chance at becoming who we were meant to become. This ordeal, this adversarial time, is our chance to rise to the occasion and to become a man/woman that only a fool would leave.
Second, even if the WAS are not thinking clearly, and often then are not, that does NOT necessarily mean
1) they will again think clearly or wake up; ever, or soon,
AND - OR
2) even if they do awaken, they will not be quite the same as before.
We can still lose them. AND OR We may no longer wish to be with who they are now, or who they were. Then We can become the WAS and it's NOT to be punitive. (Make sure of that).
It's just that once the "DB dance" and work seems done, and the reconciliation or piecing begins,
it's as if WE LBSers suddenly awaken only to ask ourselves,
Hey, is this what I want for MY life now? Now that I know I'm quite alright, with or without my spouse? Now that I have GAL and have become the person I once was, or hoped to be...
what or whom do I WANT, NOW??
As for recon, the ones I have seen seem to follow one of two paths (generally). Once we get along enough to be civil and co parent, we can usually become cordial, even friendly...with our former spouses...
and from there, the reconciliations begin..
If they are going to reconcile, of the couples I know who have, that's usually how it happens. A kid's event, a family thing or a phone call, but they all succeed after AND ONLY AFTER both people have really dug deep, to work on themselves, totally independent of each other.
So there is no score keeping. No beliefs that "i will work on me & my stuff,if HE does HIS work too.. WHILE OR BEFORE I do my work...(and I will keep peeking and score keeping to check...) Simply put, That^^^ approach always fails. Ditch the scorecard for good.
Don't even bother working on yourself if it's at all contingent on someone else's working on themselves. IT defeats the purpose.
In sum, do not "wait" for them to awaken.
At one point I decided to Assume my h was in the Australian Bush and I could not reach him until if and when he got a satellite phone. I would NOT sit by my phone waiting, that's for sure...
IT might be a few months, but is likely to be a solid year or two...or never...
Yes my advice is that the LBSers MUST move on. BUT Moving on does not mean we slam and lock the door behind us, but it does mean we stop looking behind us to see if our WAS has noticed, or turned, or is GAL and all the obsessing that goes with guesswork re a WAS....so tiring and wasteful and it very much hinders our own path and growth....
Constantly Looking over your shoulder is no way to swim to the other shore.
Just get to the other shore, to the place where their actions/feelings/plans are NOT our priority or focus.
Accept that your WAS knows how to reach you IF they want to. You're not off fighting in Afghanistan...they have arms that work and can pick up a phone and make their mouth say what they need to say.
Make sense?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Yes my advice is that the LBSers MUST move on. BUT Moving on does not mean we slam and lock the door behind us, but it does mean we stop looking behind us to see if our WAS has noticed, or turned, or is GAL and all the obsessing that goes with guesswork re a WAS....so tiring and wasteful and it very much hinders our own path and growth....
Constantly Looking over your shoulder is no way to swim to the other shore.
Just get to the other shore, to the place where their actions/feelings/plans are NOT our priority or focus.
Yes, 25, that makes a lot of sense. So as part of moving on, when the LBS decides to continue to work on their marriage (or stand so to speak) , where does the dating fall into all of this. As a stander, do we still believe in the marriage completely and never date again. Or do we stand as per se, still care and love our WAS, but realise that we cannot simply stay a nun/priest during that time? Are we just as bad as the WAS, if we say we are standing, but then go out and date?
ME:51 W:46 M:25 S:22, S:20 Divorced 16/9/15 BD 10/12 W left 12/12 with OW, affair confirmed Nov/12. Dark since 6/13 I"m in a new relationship since Feb 14.
Yes, 25, that makes a lot of sense. So as part of moving on, when the LBS decides to continue to work on their marriage (or stand so to speak) , where does the dating fall into all of this. This ^^ is a core question that has several components. No simple answer.
Let me try outlining a few parameters.
Timing is key. No one can pretend to be "standing" and then date two weeks after a bomb drop. That's a pretty clear example of someone not DBing or taking their vows seriously.
But I have seen (true stories) people here "standing" for 5 or more YEARS, with NO interaction or sign of reconciliation from their EX spouse...they are often legally and physically divorced and have been out of touch for years, but will claim to be 'standing"....
but to ME, they are waiting or standing STILL and somehow claiming to be "working on the m". iF someone is not doing anything different or new, I don't believe they are working on themselves, and I don't think they understand DBing. Or they like to lift their hands up in the air helplessly but saying "I TRIED" and what they really mean is they did not file...which is not nearly what we mean when we use the terms "DBing" and "Standing", etc.
Dating is not a gimmick to get a spouse back. For one thing, that would be grossly unfair to the OM/OW who is essentially being used as a tactic to get a second look from a WAS.
Plus if that ^^^is the real reason for the date, it usually gets detected, so it backfires anyhow, and then the whole point of the charade is lost. Not to mention potentially hurting an innocent OM/OW...
HOWEVER I think dating even though you are open to a reconciliation, DOES have a legit role, under some circumstances. My list of when it's "okay" to date is not written in stone and is just MHO and is NOT exhaustive or complete.
But no matter how dedicated we are to a marriage, we also all have our own personal limits. Being alone in bed every night, is a nightly reminder of our rejected status. Though it can be liberating and exciting, it also can get old and lonely too.
OR maybe the LBSer no longer wants to stand so they begin to date, regardless of the Div filing status.
OR maybe we just want to know what is out there, dating wise, so we take a look. OR perhaps we have met someone special, someone who makes us laugh or with whom we share a common interest, AND it can be very reassuring to simply know an attractive MAN/WOMAN does exist, OTHER than the one who left you!
True, We may never want to date again, but we might want to file just to have some measure of closure (though I believe that concept is overstated).
OTOH, maybe we just want to know that someone out there still thinks we are desirable and our ego needs some stroking. Lord knows our ego has taken a smashing blow and it would feel nice to know that we are not the losers we sometimes feel we must be for our favorite person in the world to leave us.... And that's ^^probably not a good enough reason to date, b/c there, it's about our insecurity/ego, and not about getting to know someone new or someone really interested in Them, nor would we be bringing much to the table for THEM...
But if a LOT of time has passed (and for ME, 6 months is a minimum before I'd open my eyes to an OM and I know I'd wait longer if there were kids, )
and that is a whole other issue of huge importance. Are there children? Gender and Ages?
What is Their level of preparedness for a parent to date. Believe it or not, many kids ask their LBS parent to date, MAYBE b/c they worry that the LBS will become too bitter or lonely, if they don't find someone else, or they'll be alone and the child feels burdened by the LBSer, or worries they will someday, and they want the LBS parent to be happy. This is especially clear when the LBSer is depressed or rejected feeling, which is always, (but some of us hide it better from the kids...but not many hide it well or consistently b/c, well, because we are human).
So if there are kids, I'd add to the time period before dating, I'd be VERY VERY slow in introducing the kids to a new person.
The MC I saw told me that if I were to date, to only introduce the kids to a OM if I were 75% sure that something permanent was possible with the OM. AND that the kids were to have "reasonable veto power", which meant, according to this MC, that if a child does not connect or like the new person or they don't match up well or get along, the new person GOES AWAY...the kids CAN veto.
The exception would be if the kids are simply not accepting the parents divorce, (when it's obviously too late, for instance if the WAS has remarried and has a new family, it's OVER and yet there are a few kids who will still want their remaining parent to be single forever... in which case greatly slowing down the new R is clearly needed.
The child is not to feel as if they have no vote or say in their surroundings b/c it will deeply weaken their belief that they can affect or control their lives. Make sense?
I can see that at some point a new R would not be able to progress UNLESS/UNTIL I knew that my kids approved of and liked the man. And that he liked my kids. IT'd be a non starter if they did not get along. (Reminds me of a woman who came to Legal Aid once for a problem. She mentioned the new man in her life and said "He's a great guy and I really love him...he's NOT great with my kids b/c they don't get along, but everything else is..." AND I STOPPED her then and there..
"how can a man be a "great guy" but NOT get along with your kids? It's either or, not both. I was stunned that someone NOT Liking your kids would still be considered as a potential mate, at all.
Talk about making your child feel low on the Totem pole...
If there are no signs of a recon, and you have not dated, then you know the dating did not make things worse.
And if you are sincerely interested in someone who seems pleasant and you wish to get to know them, and you are honest with them, then it can be a good way to revisit your single self, get to know how to date these days amd at your present age, AND to remember that not all members of the opposite sex are 'bad news".
If it's "time to get back in the saddle", and you are worried about your kids, ask them how they'd feel about it. Being direct is a really refreshing thing for kids to have with them, in times like these especially.
Try to ask them this, BEFORE you meet a special person. so the air is cleared when no emotions are involved AND If there is strong resistance from your family, you won't feel nearly as frustrated or trapped by deferring the whole dating scene. And not feeling trapped, tends to help ALL the r;s you have...
As a stander, do we still believe in the marriage completely and never date again. Not in my opinion. Never say never!
My h and I were sep (including geographically) as well, for 2 years. After year 1, I began to dip my toe in the dating world.
In some ways, dating reminded me why I like men. Many men HERE on these boards also serve as wonderful reminders of what good stand up men are like. They show up for their lives and they truly care and work hard.
It also reminded me of why I chose my h in the first place. Despite meeting two very good men out here dating, I mostly felt better suited to my h. I'm pretty sure he had a similar experience. You meet someone, they are attractive and courteous and you have dinner. During dinner You realize "oh, they don't feel secure around (me) someone with more education than they have", or "oh wow they really do care WAY too much about my income level...not cool... or they don't take care of themselves physically or they drink too much, and the point ends up being that you miss your spouse MORE!
Want the Good news? The good news is, It goes both ways!
IF your spouse is dating, do NOT assume the best date ever/worst case for you...it hurts, And it's not too accurate so, why bother?
Or do we stand as per se, still care and love our WAS, but realise that we cannot simply stay a nun/priest during that time?
One fear I articulated at the time was, "what if I never have sex again?" My MC was a man and my ego got enough strokes that he convinced me that dating and having sex "again, SOMEDAY", would happen so that I did not let that factor, the desire for physical intimacy, get ahold of me too fast.
Are we just as bad as the WAS, if we say we are standing, but then go out and date?
Seems to me the "hypocrisy" argument your WAS could make, is weak yet it sure can hurt you, but it only works against you, if you did JUST what the WAS did, which is impossible if you were under the same roof and he forgot to mention had "GD Unhappy" he is....
We are just as bad as the WAS when we do what they did...if it was bad.
To be fair, SOME WASs are not dating OM/OW when they drop the bomb, but once they separate some do begin to date.
As hard as it is to see how they are "trying" in the M, while sep and then dating, somehow it feels differently than when a spouse is still under roof as you are, and steps out on you.
I hope this helps more than confuses. Input welcome.
And though I see the obvious downside of dating WHILE standing, there are ways to do it carefully. You do NOT tell your WAS.
You do NOT tell your kids until if and when you know this person is important enough for you to put them and the new person, through it. If things go south, the kids get to feel abandoned, again.
Good question, good luck. I'll try to be more specific next time.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
amazing insight, 25. So much information, and so much of it makes clear sense.
I have always been a little confused about the term, stander. I thought it meant "waiting", or maybe I thought it meant "still trying". I just assumed once a person had moved on to the point of dating, the "standing" was all over and done with. Your explanation adds a lot of clarity.
I have a question though. You mentioned that it would be a good idea to discuss dating with your children. Are you saying to literally say, "hey kids, what do you think about (parent) going out on some dates? If that is the case, at what age would you consider having this conversation? Obviously, we LBSers wouldn't have this conversation with a toddler, but what about a 5 yo., a 10 yo., etc?
In regards to filing for Divorce, I think we all look to it in hopes that it will be that silver bullet. We just want to get the pain and hurt over with so we can move forward. Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that. If I had to it all over again, I would not have filed. I feel the longer one can wait, the less emotion there will be. That will allow better decisions to be made, and it will be at a time where you will be better prepared to deal with the issues at hand.
amazing insight, 25. So much information, and so much of it makes clear sense.
I have always been a little confused about the term, stander. I thought it meant "waiting", or maybe I thought it meant "still trying". I just assumed once a person had moved on to the point of dating, the "standing" was all over and done with. Your explanation adds a lot of clarity. I believe people tried to tell you SP, that moving on did not mean never looking back, or that you were stuck with either "waiting/standing" or "over and done with." The truth is that the LBSer who lasts, is the one who learns to live with some ambiguity in their life.
Not everyone can handle the "be here Now" approach that letting go of our illusion of control, requires. We can't worry all the time about what is going to happen or where the R is going, nor can we keep on living in the past.
We have to take it day by day and work on OURSELVES without regard to what our spouse is doing, for some amount of time that is usually longer than we believe we can do it....
I have a question though. You mentioned that it would be a good idea to discuss dating with your children.
I don't think that is what I said or meant to say. to be clear, NO I would not INTRODUCE a child to anyone I dated, regardless of the child's age, --- UNTIL if and when
the new person is someone you are mostly (like 3/4??) sure you want to build something permanent with, you then introduce your d to the new person.
Don't wait til it's a done deal, before you bring them together. This is part of the building on the R...if they don't click, it's a deal breaker.
When the kids are older, like teenagers, if you want to date but were not sure how they'd feel, I'd just ask them IF they would be comfortable...I know some folks who honestly would prefer their widowed parents or divorced parents WOULD date but others want the remaining parent to solely focus on THEM, the kids, b/c they are...kids. But the widower/widows I know, have kids who would like them to meet someone, EVENTUALLY...
And they need to get along WELL w/the new person (not "okay" but well, like the kid wants her around, and visa versa)
or you are asking for more trouble...and yes it is possible to be a very decent step parent. I have seen it done well, and I've seen it done poorly.
My MC said that kids should have "reasonable veto power" when they meet the OP, but that "no parade of candidates should be hauled in front of the kids to audition as the new step parent, as it also makes the kids feel like they are auditioning for the step child role", which is not that appealing to kids, and if there are other kids on her side, be careful and put thought into it BEFORE things get too far.
My former BIL left my sister to find himself. Later, he chose to marry OW (whom HE describes as "high maintenance"). The OW he married does not like his children. Truly. He waited to introduce them until he had already decided to marry her and he had no problem with the fact that his new fiancee was not fond of his kids. Maybe HE is not fond of them?? All I know is that he compounded the wrongs of the divorce by then choosing someone who makes it clear that his children's happiness is simply NOT HIS Priority...
She's been over heard saying things like "Can't we dump them on your x?" and she doesn't like them opening HER refrigerator to get a drink (they are all over 21 and I mean, it's milk, and juice, not wine or liquor...her behavior is unforgivable really.
It has done some deep damage to each of his 3 kids. None of them are close to their dad, at all...
So I think that the veto power is crucial, but it needs to be firm & reasonable and done early enough in the R so if it's going to end b/c they are not going to work out, you don't drag it out..
Of course, if your d says "No I want you to date someone with red hair" and that's her REAL objection, first dig deep enough to see if she's being silly or if she's still just hoping you and your ex reconcile OR if she simply wants all of your attention, you work on it...maybe you persuade her to care more about what really matters but you still give her the feeling of choice...
But if my children, any of them, OR if your d, SP, meets an OW of yours & she and the OW truly don't hit it off after a few weeks or months, I'd absolutely see the writing on the walls. I would think BEFORE I went much farther with a new person, and I would not be complacent and "just hope" it gets better on its' own. That complacency is dangerous in a marriage or family.
Truly, I don't understand people dating, let alone marrying, someone their kids did not LOVE...period. Bad enough to put the kid thru a bad marriage and divorce, only to bring in someone who only cares for the partner and does not want to be bothered by the child...or wants "her own".
Making sure the child knows that they reserve the right to reject, that they come first (at least until a marriage happens) and that what is happening in their lives, ( IF a marriage is coming), is the welcoming of another affirming adult into their lives...meaning, down the road if you and your x both meet and marry good people, (=people who are kind to your d)
rather than feeling threatened by OM who is good to your d, or your xw feeling bad about you meeting a great woman who loves your d,
you both should thank each other for choosing a new partner (step parent to your child) who really does treat them well.
Children who have two parents and two step parents, all of whom love the child, and positively reinforce things and encourage the child, can't be all bad. And it's not. (The alternative, is pretty darn bad.)
My niece got married last year, and the divorce of her parents (my closest brother and her mom) was the worst we had in our family. A full trial and witnesses testifying, the whole 9 yards...6 figures in legal bills, etc.
So, At the wedding, my brother touchingly thanked his 2nd wife for being such a great step mom to his d's, all the meals she made, the nights she stayed up with His daughters when they were sick, AND then he graciously toasted the step father for "being there when he could not" and for loving his daughters too...
It was Very touching, and classy...and something to emulate...??
Are you saying to literally say, "hey kids, what do you think about (parent) going out on some dates? If that is the case, at what age would you consider having this conversation? Obviously, we LBSers wouldn't have this conversation with a toddler, but what about a 5 yo., a 10 yo., etc?
I would not bring it up (unless you had met someone special...but not waiting til after things have gone too far to turn them around if there is a problem)
SP, in your sitch, I think the topic would naturally come up from your d, b/c your xw is dating. So at some point your d will probably ask you. Then you ask HER how she'd feel about it. And so on.
She may say she wants you all to yourself, and mean it...but that will change in time. At some point she will prefer you have someone of your own, b/c she will want more freedom of her own. IT's the natural process later on, when the kids start wanting to hang with their friends way more than time with their parents, so it'd be nice for THEM, to feel unburdened by worrying about their parents social life.
But again even if you are dating someone, your d does NOT need to know about that if it's something new in your life.
In regards to filing for Divorce, I think we all look to it in hopes that it will be that silver bullet. We just want to get the pain and hurt over with so we can move forward. Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that. If I had to it all over again, I would not have filed.
SIGH-- SP, it seemed you could not hear us. (Maybe you can assess that trait and see if you have it in other places in your life. I'm betting you do
Oh, and Your view that filing would bring any type of closure or stop the pain, is a common myth. Sad, but the process can't be speeded up by external situational changes (but they help get your mind off things now & then)
TIME will help you, and GAL...
Then again, by filing you seemed to gain some clarity, even if it's not the clarity you wanted, and maybe the clarity would c about b/c of actions you regret...which just means you need to Learn from mistakes.
When You file for divorce and the M ends, you'll always wonder what might have happened if you had taken different advice....
While we can play that regret game all day if we let ourselves, we should not.
We have to BE HERE NOW...not wallowing in our past mistakes and not catastrophizing about the future.
I feel the longer one can wait, the less emotion there will be. That will allow better decisions to be made, and it will be at a time where you will be better prepared to deal with the issues at hand.
Yes...well, I GAL and detached, and we were sep for over 2 years! So my time line was always a bit longer...
Good luck SP, and I hope this helps you both a little. We are all playing things by ear.
SP, next time a bunch of people seem to be saying the same thing and you find yourself still explaining, and still you are not convincing anyone to change their mind, even after 4 different ways of wording it,
look in the mirror and force yourself to STRONGLY consider the possibility of changing Your mind. Good luck
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I didn't mean to hijack, 2olds thread, but thank you 25. I am improving and working on my self growth every day. I may be a slow student, but I am learning
25, really fantastic response on the subject of dating, I'm going to bookmark it as the question comes up a lot on the forums but rarely gets answered in a definitive way.
On the subject of dating someone that doesn't like kids, I really don't get that either. I would rather just not date than date someone that can't be any less than loving towards my kids. My brother's ex left him for a man that hates ALL kids. What amazes me about people that don't like kids is that they think they are experts on how to raise kids, and of course everything any parent does is WRONG in their eyes. OM and brother's ex are constantly fighting about the kids, IN FRONT of the kids. It's gotten so bad that now after 5 years of dating the ex told the OM that he can't come to her house anymore. But she is STILL dating him! Shaking my head.
I didn't mean to hijack, 2olds thread, but thank you 25. I am improving and working on my self growth every day. I may be a slow student, but I am learning
I believe you SP, I really do. But keep it in mind when it happens again. Anyhow, I will stop by your thread.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
