PatientMan - 6th Edition - Acting Divorced

[JayMan]

She has said that she cannot move forward in a MR with me until she is okay on her own

Maybe I missed it, but what does "okay on her own" mean?

[melissag]

Hi PM, your sitch is so frustrating for me to read about . . . I can't imagine what it must be like to live it.

I think what it comes down to is, what you can handle. Is there some way to continue hanging on to your W, and following along with her ups and downs, moving closer and then backing away, while still protecting yourself emotionally? Not that I can fathom.

Standing for your M is pretty much putting your heart on the line and hoping it doesn't get continually smashed into pieces. Sometimes I think that it would be easier to have a WAS who just annihilates the LBS all at once, then disappears forever. Because then there is not that constant need to decide how much is enough.

What is your W doing to fix herself? From your posts, I see nothing. So I'm not sure what, on the current path, will make this pattern (she gets closer, then she moves farther away, your heart is broken, you decide to set boundaries, she moves closer, and on and on) ever end. It certainly doesn't seem like she is doing anything to end it. So I guess it is up to you whether you want it to end. Is it worth the risk?

Something I have seen posted quite a bit around here is the LBS needing to get out of the WAS's way, so that the WAS can have his/her own "journey." I think you are still in her way. And yes, it is because she is pulling you in, but regardless of how it happens, will she ever be able to figure herself out/fix herself/know that she is okay on her own if you are always around and available?

Also, your W has never had to miss you. You have always been there for her. And while I think that's great that you have always been there for her, she doesn't seem to appreciate it in the way you want her to. It's nice for her to know that she doesn't have to do anything that is uncomfortable for her, because you will always be there. But if she doesn't do anything uncomfortable, she will never change or grow, and, correct me if I am wrong, but it doesn't seem that you can have any sort of meaningful R with her unless she does some growing.

I don't think anyone will tell you to enforce boundaries you don't want. Since the boundaries are for you, you get to decide what they are. The question is, do you remember how you felt a few weeks ago when you set those boundaries, and why? If you are willing to risk feeling like that once again, then that's your choice, right? Only you will know when you have had enough.

I do want to point out one thing, though . . . perhaps you need a 180 in your present R with your W. Because, based on your posts, it seems as though you two have been doing this same thing for a very long time, and getting the same undesirable (for you) results again and again.

[PatientMan]

She has said that she cannot move forward in a MR with me until she is okay on her own

Maybe I missed it, but what does "okay on her own" mean?

I don't know that she entirely knows, so it's tough to accomplish a goal that is undefined. However, some things she has mentioned over time:

• Financial independence - not having to count on me to be able live her life
• Emotional independence - she says that her mood drives off of my mood. She says it's nothing I'm doing, it's just her habit/pattern. Another word for this could be "detachment".
• "Get to a place where she doesn't rely on a hug from me to feel better"
• She wants to feel like she has control of her own space and the confidence to speak up to me instead of biting her tongue

A direct quote from her (via text) from New Year's Eve, which when I said I couldn't do this anymore: "Just maybe we need to be ok on our own first, if that's possible. I and we can't go forward in any direction if we don't."

Blueprint or hook?

Hmmm.

-PM

[melissag]

A direct quote from her (via text) from New Year's Eve, which when I said I couldn't do this anymore: "Just maybe we need to be ok on our own first, if that's possible. I and we can't go forward in any direction if we don't."

Have you asked her what that looks like to her? How she envisions each of you being OK on your own? What she needs to get there?

[PatientMan]

melissag, thanks for your response.

What is your W doing to fix herself? From your posts, I see nothing.

She is averse to counseling for some reason. I haven't pushed it, but I've encouraged it a couple of times.

She seems to be one of those people who thinks times heals all wounds. To anyone reading this who thinks that way, I hate to break it to you, but you're wrong.

Hard work can heal wounds. Acceptance can heal wounds. Neosporin can heal wounds.

But time?

Time is just a force that can be resisted. It is a force that can wear us down so that we come to a place of acceptance. It is a force that can wear us down so that the pain motivates us to do the hard work. But time itself is a force that the stubborn can resist.

So I'm not sure what, on the current path, will make this pattern (she gets closer, then she moves farther away, your heart is broken, you decide to set boundaries, she moves closer, and on and on) ever end. It certainly doesn't seem like she is doing anything to end it. So I guess it is up to you whether you want it to end. Is it worth the risk?

This is the first time we have actively set boundaries, but yes, she comes at me in waves: closing in and then receding. But as I said, the tide seems to be coming in and the waves are getting closer.

It's certainly possible, though, that where I am on the shore, the tide may never reach.

Something I have seen posted quite a bit around here is the LBS needing to get out of the WAS's way, so that the WAS can have his/her own "journey." I think you are still in her way. And yes, it is because she is pulling you in, but regardless of how it happens, will she ever be able to figure herself out/fix herself/know that she is okay on her own if you are always around and available?

That's what I told her when she first hugged me post-boundary setting. "If hugging you is going to set you back, then I don't want to hug you." Her response was that it wasn't setting her back, and that she's "getting there."

But maybe she is just saying that because she is afraid of losing me.

Or she just really wanted her hug, her fix.

Also, your W has never had to miss you.

In her words she misses me all the time, fights the urge to call me or text me, etc., but I get what you mean. REALLY miss me...as in, I won't be there for her for support, which is what you are about to explain...

You have always been there for her. And while I think that's great that you have always been there for her, she doesn't seem to appreciate it in the way you want her to. It's nice for her to know that she doesn't have to do anything that is uncomfortable for her, because you will always be there. But if she doesn't do anything uncomfortable, she will never change or grow, and, correct me if I am wrong, but it doesn't seem that you can have any sort of meaningful R with her unless she does some growing.

Good point, and I agree.

How do I force her to grow? I certainly can't. I can reject her, but that seems awful. Why should *I* be the one to enforce her boundaries? Boundaries are for me, and as you said, the WAS is supposed to be on his or her own journey. I shouldn't be making decisions for them, on their behalf. I am not her parent.

So what do I do?

• Do I try and figure out a way to reject her without hurting her feelings?
• Do I just let her do her thing and figure out how to keep my guard up?
• Do I keep a separate set of rules - one for me and one for her?

I don't think anyone will tell you to enforce boundaries you don't want. Since the boundaries are for you, you get to decide what they are. The question is, do you remember how you felt a few weeks ago when you set those boundaries, and why? If you are willing to risk feeling like that once again, then that's your choice, right? Only you will know when you have had enough.

I do want to point out one thing, though . . . perhaps you need a 180 in your present R with your W.

The boundaries are supposed to be the 180. But if she won't enforce them on her end, then what's the point?

Because, based on your posts, it seems as though you two have been doing this same thing for a very long time, and getting the same undesirable (for you) results again and again.

The tide is coming in.

I think.

I'm tired.

-PM

[PatientMan]

A direct quote from her (via text) from New Year's Eve, which when I said I couldn't do this anymore: "Just maybe we need to be ok on our own first, if that's possible. I and we can't go forward in any direction if we don't."

Have you asked her what that looks like to her? How she envisions each of you being OK on your own? What she needs to get there?

Those bullet points above what you quoted are what she has told me. That's all I have to go off of.

-PM

[PatientMan]

In other news, the girls and I had a great weekend. They have today off of school and wanted to spend an extra night at my place!

More and more they are coming to me and asking to talk to me one-on-one. It gives me confidence that they have confidence in me, that they trust me, that they know I love them and have their best interests at heart at ALL times, even when they can't see it. (I'll enjoy this as long as it lasts, which probably won't be much longer as the oldest will be a full-on teenager this year. )

We watched movies and played games. Washed the car. D10 and I went to a special gymnastics event Saturday night. D12 and I had our date Sunday evening. We had church Sunday morning, went out to eat on Saturday for lunch.

It was awesome!

-PM

[melissag]

Glad you had a great weekend and things are going well with your girls.

I think you are just going round and round in circles in your head, and trying to find some way to do the impossible, which is hang on to whatever it is you have with your XW in the hopes of it becoming more some day, without risking getting hurt again.

If you can figure out how to make this happen, please let me know. I will do it too.

The bottom line is, are you willing to risk repeated heartbreak for the possibility that your XW's tide will eventually come all the way to the shore where you are, and stay there? And the problem, of course, is that you have no idea what will happen, so it's kind of a crap shoot.

You are correct, you cannot force her to grow. However, you can tell her that she must address these issues if she wants to have a relationship with you. Or you can just accept that she may well never tackle her issues, and decide whether the person she is now, and the R you have now, is enough for you.

And then you need to think about whether it's even possible for her to address these issues when you are around all the time. But it seems to me to figure that out requires you to find out exactly what she means when she says she needs to make sure she is okay on her own. And no, you don't need to make and enforce boundaries for her, but you can make the boundary for you, if you want - that you won't have an R with her unless and until she makes an effort to "fix" herself.

I feel like, for all of us, our decisions on how to behave with respect to our WASs are dependent upon how we feel about ourselves and how much we can take. A few weeks ago, it seemed like you were just done. Maybe you are not quite done yet. Not ready to give up. Fair enough. You could always just keep this up until the point where you really are done. But I don't think there is any way to insulate yourself from hurt in the process.

[PatientMan]

Glad you had a great weekend and things are going well with your girls.

I think you are just going round and round in circles in your head, and trying to find some way to do the impossible, which is hang on to whatever it is you have with your XW in the hopes of it becoming more some day, without risking getting hurt again.

All my life I have dared to go past what is possible.

"To the impossible?" you may ask.

Actually, past that. To the place where the possible and the impossible meet, to become... the possimpible.

If you can figure out how to make this happen, please let me know. I will do it too.

Deal.

The bottom line is, are you willing to risk repeated heartbreak for the possibility that your XW's tide will eventually come all the way to the shore where you are, and stay there?

The bottom line for me is: is it the right thing to do? And also: not doing something I will regret.

Plus, I'm wearing one of those yellow, ducky-shaped inner-tubes around my waist, so if and when the tide actually comes up to me, I'll be sure to float off into the water.

And the problem, of course, is that you have no idea what will happen, so it's kind of a crap shoot.

You are correct, you cannot force her to grow. However, you can tell her that she must address these issues if she wants to have a relationship with you. Or you can just accept that she may well never tackle her issues, and decide whether the person she is now, and the R you have now, is enough for you.

Well she doesn't want a relationship with me now without her issues addressed, and no I will not decide that the person she is now and the R we have now is enough for me. It is not.

And then you need to think about whether it's even possible for her to address these issues when you are around all the time. But it seems to me to figure that out requires you to find out exactly what she means when she says she needs to make sure she is okay on her own. And no, you don't need to make and enforce boundaries for her, but you can make the boundary for you, if you want - that you won't have an R with her unless and until she makes an effort to "fix" herself.

I've already done that. When she first realized she couldn't handle her lifestyle financially back in late October/early November, I was preparing myself to tell her that we couldn't get back together under those circumstances:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2400629#Post2400629
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2401583#Post2401583

I feel like, for all of us, our decisions on how to behave with respect to our WASs are dependent upon how we feel about ourselves and how much we can take. A few weeks ago, it seemed like you were just done. Maybe you are not quite done yet. Not ready to give up. Fair enough. You could always just keep this up until the point where you really are done. But I don't think there is any way to insulate yourself from hurt in the process.

Well that sux. I'll let you know if I figure it out.

I DID feel done. But then I ran a little experiment that showed me I'm not ready for someone else right now, so I can't use that tool to facilitate me moving on. And I also got a kick in the seat of the pants of my morals and values, and that picked me back up again. It woke me back up, so I stood up, went and bought my ducky inner-tube floaty, and am standing on the shore again.

I may never get what I want right now...what I have wanted for the last 2+ years, but I won't surrender. Not like this.

-PM

[PatientMan]

And we cannot...we MUST NOT forget that once I've accepted a challenge, I cannot unaccept the challenge. I cannot rest until the challenge is completed.

-PM