Unlearning conflict avoidance - 8

[RockJC]

File for divorce and move forward with your life without your W. Do it tomorrow morning.

There is nothing you can lose in a D that would be worse than what you are losing in your M.

Find someone new.

[PatientMan]

PM - I feel compelled to respond, since it sounds to me like you feel I have done nothing. I have certainly changed my activities, though mostly in the US, where I go to various meetups, and that is fun. I've started a meetup here, but with little success, and so instead occasionally play music with two friends. I realize that my working alone all day here is not good for me, but don't see how to alter that without changing jobs (and so probably losing income). Being at work in the States is actually enjoyable, as other people are around, and my boss is great. Here it is isolating.

I've changed therapists and see two different ones.

At EE I am open about myself, but not with other non-EEers, not yet. I still only occasionally get personal emails or calls, which stinks. No one here in Sweden knows I went to EE - perhaps that should change.

I interview applicants to the college I went to, which is fun, and met a bunch of people at an alumni meeting. I rode a bike to and across the Golden Gate bridge during Thanksgiving, an excellent experience, played with my nephews, and had good walks/talks with my BIL's wife and her mom.

So, I am having a bit more fun, have met new people, but still don't have the friends here that I would like (okay, something to work on).

I would be grateful for any suggestions on what more to do/change.

There's a giant elephant in the room which you are ignoring. This elephant is taking giant dumps (as elephants do), and your "doing something" is to make sure the coffee table is dusted and the magazines are properly put away in the magazine rack...that everyone who has a drink is using coasters. You're making sure there's plenty of wood on the fire, the room temperature is comfortable, and that there's plenty of food to eat.

You're ignoring the elephant in the room.

And I'm sure you can figure out what the elephant is, but just in case, the elephant is your W and how you allow her to treat you.

Yes, how you ALLOW her to treat you.

This isn't "conflict avoidance" anymore, Luke, it's "how to avoid being a man around your W and setting a positive example for your children."

I don't mean to take shots at you, but it's been pointed out many times that your kids are watching you avoid the elephant in the room too. And that's the real tragedy here. You aren't just affecting you, you're affecting them too.

And I sit here flabbergasted that this simple truth doesn't seem to motivate you.

I am sorry it sounds to you as though I feel you have done nothing, so allow me be more specific. I feel you have done nothing to address the elephant in the room.

You have done other things, things that you can look at and proudly say, "I did that!", but you haven't addressed your problem.

You're asking for suggestions? Did you even reread this thread like I suggested? There is extremely specific advice on precisely what to do so that you can address the elephant in your room.

-PM

[MrBond]

I'll just put in my two cents.

Luke, I believe you've changed quite a bit from when you first started. You've gained sentience and awareness when before you were very emotionally removed. Now that you've become self-aware from your robotic state, you see your W's actions with much resentment and disdain.

You both seem to be feeding it to each other. Remember, she wanted you to step up and be a MAN. A MAN doesn't care what others think of their actions or is even bothered by the actions of others because he believes in his heart that his actions are the right ones.

A small part of you still seems to be forcing yourself into certain actions as responses to how your W is treating you. Forget about her and start just making YOURSELF happy. The way she treats you shouldn't even bother you or at the very least, start standing up for yourself. You still haven't developed the stones to stand up to her.

When you feel she is treating you rudely, you need to just laugh it off and say she's crazy. Start standing up for yourself.

Why haven't you done that yet? It's not like it'll make things worse. You have nothing to lose by becoming more of a man.

[25yearsmlc]

My W now longer uses my name or even nickname, with just short phrases on the (small) present tags, and skipping over saying it during the singing of Happy Birthday. She also doesn't look at me much. Is this shame on her part?

If you are asking if she feels shame and that's why she refuses to acknowledge your name or look at you, then NO, it's not shame. I believe you have asked that question in the past. The word here is not shame. It is disdain.

I would have said " contempt" but disdain works, and it's definitely NOT shame. Your w is not, in her mind, married to you and has not been married to you for years. She has nothing to feel shame about except the few times her cruel rude behavior gets too overt and you call her on it...and it's rare that you call her on it. IN fact you see that your own d is emulating that behavior and it won't get better by itself "in time"...

it's NOT something that is going to get better or improve by you looking the other way.

What concerns me is that you have a pattern of doing that, e.g., looking the other way when your w is overtly rude to you and you don't want to face it OR seeing "warm rapprochment & possible reconciliation" when all that has happened is basic courtesy, or the absence of a negative behavior from her... you start wondering what new gesture on your end might produce...what?


Luke, hasn't this been going on for the past decade? You get mistreated and wonder if it's something else. Instead of bad behavior on her end, you question if she feels shame, which credits her beyond belief to me. It's almost as if you want to see hope where all I see is contempt or disdain.

You came here 9 or 10 years ago after your w had taken over the master bedroom and refused to sleep with you. She gave you NO explanation You asked none of her...in all those years...

Luke, it seems clear to me that the whole "don't rock the boat" approach has not worked.

My guess is she is baffled that you don't understand that to her, the marriage is over. To her, you have known this for a decade and she sometimes has to treat you terribly to get thru to you, or at least that is how it reads to me at times.

Of all the problems in this scenario, my biggest beef with all this is how badly she treats you in front of your children and how you don't really do anything about it. You seem so concerned about conflict that you allow abuse to happen and I don't believe conflict is the enemy. NEVER resolving conflict is the problem.

Bad behavior being allowed and then repeating, is a lot worse than resolving a conflict. IN fact, marriages cannot and should not be judged by how much conflict they have; some marriages are challenged more.

but how you resolve the conflict THAT is the bellwether for how you're doing as a couple/person.

If you are so conflict avoidant that you'd choose abusive crappy behavior over a moment of awkwardness as you openly note her behavior and inform her that it "has to stop"....then your fear of conflict is just too high.


If anyone refused to use my name, I'd not answer until I was involved in a conversation or event. IOW, I'd insist that my name be used...


Otherwise she is just being rude to you. But Luke, Answering or acting as if someone has treated you well, when they have not, gives them a whole lot of power.

Why not simply tell her she has to address you if she expects a response?
I might even joke that she "must have forgotten" your name or that she's getting too old to remember, or offer her 3 names of her choosing among the following options: your actual name, a better name you always wanted, or "Master"....


What on earth do you have to lose? A part of you gets this, I know. That gives me so much hope.

But WHEN it comes to your w, you seem to think that what exists now is better than nothing.

I submit it's NOT better than nothing. But even if it were, your w is leaving and since that time is coming, perhaps that ought to motivate you to start preparing yourself. How are you going to lead the life you want and deserve, when your w is out of the house?

How will you improve your r with your d? (You rarely see her as it is. I bet once you have visitation you might see her more often and not with someone like your w, mistreating you in your d's presence).

Can you buy your w out of the house? Are you interested in that?

Luke, spend a few minutes on this, please.

Tell me what your ideal life in five years would be like, with you happy, but without your w?

What does that look like?

You need to envision it in DETAIL before you can make it a reality.

Am I telling you to give up?
No. I simply believe your course of action of GAL with the expectation that your w will NOT be part of it, is smart in two ways.

It means you'll be ready that much faster, for happiness, if she does as she says she will, and leaves.

AND on the off chance that she might be open to reconciling,- it would only be if she came to believe that marriage to you would be better/different than before...

That can ONLY come from you changing how you behave around her.

Sandi and I (Adinva, and others) are long time married women and we all seem to be seeing this the same way.

You're badly treated and you somehow don't see it, and or, you let it happen.

Why? You KNOW you deserve better...so, what will it take for you to see this?

And if you have seen it, that you deserve better and more, then what?

Can you do what that takes? It's major conflict resolution.

Or do you want to stay in the boat and not rock it, while your w says it's sinking?

Down deep you know you can survive and thrive on your own. Start acting like you believe it. Let your d see that. Let your son see it and let them both see you enjoying your life regardless of how your w behaves.

WHen shes cold or nasty to you, it's HEALTHY and self respecting to call her on it. Then go have fun.

[LuckyLuke]

PM, Mr. Bond, MLC,

Thanks. I will focus on the future in this mail.

A happy life in 5 years would be: less pain and less loneliness, spending time with my kids without the shadow and disapproval of my W, a woman who does not hurt me or put me down, who fights fair (and ideally teaches me about fighting). A country per year trip, involving learning the language, culture, history, etc, with the kids. Friends. Hearing from friends more often, so that life is more than just metabolism. Playing music. Intellectual stimulation. Sex. Holding hands. Affection. Not sure what country I would live in. Perhaps a new job in a new field. Feeling comfortable at parties. More assertiveness.

Not sure I can be more detailed - any suggestions? Questions?

Luke

[LuckyLuke]

A few more: being more sure of myself. Having a fashion sense (though I philosophically disagree with this). Doing a more well rounded exercise routine. Not feeling left out or odd or like the broken toy. More social skills.

Luke

[LuckyLuke]

More ideas: be more systematic about a new partner. My still-W says I need a kind, gentle person, which rings true. Perhaps look for someone from my alma mater, which is known for its awkward introverts.

My biggest fear right now is regarding the trip I've booked for my son and I. W and d do not know. How will they react? When shall I tell them? Suppose they do not approve? Is it okay that he and I take this trip, taking him away from them during Christmas vacation?

Luke

[LuckyLuke]

You know, all this boils down to fear, fear of rejection, fear of being put down - again and again, fear of what my W will say, fear of fighting, fear of the next slice of negativity when I say or do something, fear of effing up my life, fear of being abandoned (the classic older man scenario, depressed and alone) etc etc.

So I avoid her (a perfect example of Gottman's negative cascade, this). We had to drive 4x to the same place this weekend, she and I, an hour each way, spent mostly silent.

How do you work on this fear? Every time I've tried to talk to her, I get put down.

My background is rational, factual, Teutonic. Why can't our interchanges be factual? I answer her put downs fairly, rationally, but it doesn't feel like enough: the "if you hit me, I'll hit you back (verbally!)", isn't there, but what stupid game is that? Why not be rational?

d is home today, and needed help with math. Our interchanges are much more give and take and good. I pointed out an unreasonable expectation on her part. She told me about a dream, with something important written in a purple sky, which she absolutely had to photograph, so she stopped the train. I really loved her in that moment.

Luke

[T1000]

You know, all this boils down to fear, fear of rejection, fear of being put down - again and again, fear of what my W will say, fear of fighting, fear of the next slice of negativity when I say or do something, fear of effing up my life, fear of being abandoned (the classic older man scenario, depressed and alone) etc etc.

So I avoid her (a perfect example of Gottman's negative cascade, this). We had to drive 4x to the same place this weekend, she and I, an hour each way, spent mostly silent.

How do you work on this fear? Every time I've tried to talk to her, I get put down.

My background is rational, factual, Teutonic. Why can't our interchanges be factual? I answer her put downs fairly, rationally, but it doesn't feel like enough: the "if you hit me, I'll hit you back (verbally!)", isn't there, but what stupid game is that? Why not be rational?

d is home today, and needed help with math. Our interchanges are much more give and take and good. I pointed out an unreasonable expectation on her part. She told me about a dream, with something important written in a purple sky, which she absolutely had to photograph, so she stopped the train. I really loved her in that moment.

Luke

A small step in the right direction every time until it gets easier and becomes natural.

[Accuray]

How do you work on this fear?

Since you are analytical, you analyze what it is that you are afraid of, and then determine if those outcomes are worse than what you're currently living with.

I view you a bit like the prisoner who is so adapted to the routine of prison life that they fear having their freedom.

When I first started posting to you, I think I pointed out that you had nothing to lose. You are already in a position where your spouse humiliates you, emasculates you in front of your children, is mean to you, denies you of sex and even common courtesy. How is that situation going to get worse?

What do you have to fear that you're not already living with?

When I started posting to you, you were afraid that W would divorce you and you wouldn't be able to keep your house, but now that's going to happen too, so what do you have to lose *now*? Even less!

So what are the fears you have?

1) Being alone: You already are alone, but worse you're treated poorly. The pummeling your W gives your self esteem inhibits your ability to foster new friendships and erodes your relationship with your kids. Leaving your W will actually make you less alone, not more alone.

2) Being insulted and put down: You're already in this scenario, could it possibly get worse?

3) Being made to feel "less than": You're already there. Could it possibly get worse?

That which you fear has already come to pass, so what do you have to fear?

You claim to be rational, factual, and Teutonic, but do you see that your behavior in this regard is anything but that?

You are ruled be emotion and fear, not rationality. Use your rationality to your advantage and see this situation for what it is -- one that cannot possibly be worse.

Acc