To little Too late

[2little2late]

I guess that this is my dilemma. After realizing how hurt our daughter will be from our divorce I said that I would keep this dance we have indefinitely. So we are basically separated but living together. If I were not out of town I would be home and the charade would continue. It would be unbearable if it not for the fact that we I would do anything for my daughter. Her happiness is most important. I have emotionally moved on. I have accepted that My wife emotionally has moved on. I am no longer mourning the loss of our marriage.
So how can I incorporate any rules when I have to keep daily contact with my 9 year old daughter. She is an innocent soul and I will do anything to keep her from being hurt.

[adinva]

So, you think it is best for her to teach her that she should stay in a dead marriage. She should stay in it forever and expect to give and receive no love or affection. You would advise her to live basically separated but living together in a charade because that is the only way she can prevent her child from being hurt?

Does it look different when you look at it that way?

How are you going to prevent any of the other hurts that come in life? Will you allow her to date and risk being hurt by her first love? Will you allow her to apply for college and risk not being accepted to her first choice? Will you prevent her from trying anything difficult so she doesn't have to face the disappointment of failure? Will she be better off if you can prevent her from being hurt?

Does it look any different thinking about that?

I spent a good long while fighting tooth and nail against divorce because I didn't want my kids to be hurt either. Unfortunately divorce is not the worst kind of hurt for a kid. Unfortunately also, you can't guarantee that your child is going to be better off for your sacrificing your happiness. Your child learns all kinds of things from you, including what you do when things don't go your way, what you do when you've tried everything you can, what is OK to live with in a marriage. How many of us went into marriage a certain way because that's what we knew from our parents? I don't know, but for me I did. What will your daughter learn from your situation?

[2little2late]

But you see there is the dichotomy of the situation. My daughter sees nothing but a happy, loving family when actually it is not. Is the sacrifice for your children not the the ultimate sacrifice. You protect your children no matter what. I would give my life for my daughter in an instant. I will not put her through a divorce just for the sake of my happiness. I am sorry but She is the most important factor here, not me or my wife. We brought her into this world so we have to look after her. She is our responsibility. Life is not that complicated. I am not a religious man but I believe in Heaven and Hell. I believe that they are places that you create while living. And the suffering that I go through by losing my wife is nothing compared to the pain I would feel seeing my daughter in pain. She is more than ever the most important part of my life.

[adinva]

You do not know what your 9yo perceives, nor what she'll perceive at 13, 17, etc. Nor when she finds out later, if you separate then, that you were faking it through her childhood and her memories are fake. Not trying to be mean, but you really do not know what she is going to think or feel in either case. I think you put more emphasis on being two parents in one house, love or no love, than on teaching her how to live and love well. What is it that you want her to learn?

I disagree with you, life is very complicated. My life is ridiculously complicated, but I am at peace and I really hope to be able to teach my kids that we are not going to fall apart just because my marriage did.

[adinva]

You do not know what your 9yo perceives, nor what she'll perceive at 13, 17, etc. Nor when she finds out later, if you separate then, that you were faking it through her childhood and her memories are fake. Not trying to be mean, but you really do not know what she is going to think or feel in either case. I think you put more emphasis on being two parents in one house, love or no love, than on teaching her how to live and love well. What is it that you want her to learn?

I disagree with you, life is very complicated. My life is ridiculously complicated, but I am at peace and I really hope to be able to teach my kids that we are not going to fall apart just because my marriage did.

[adinva]

I read back from the beginning, and I guess what bugs me is you're here in DB and what you have tried so far is "trying to convince her" and "giving up and making the ultimate sacrifice." Neither of those is DB. Why not try giving your marriage a chance?

Trying to convince is what most of us do, pre-DB, before we find out that it is exactly the opposite of effective.

The way you describe your attitude of giving in, sounds like you don't have any intention of looking deeper, listening and validating your wife, and doing some hard work on yourself to be a man only a fool would leave. Rather than do that hard work, you are choosing to capitulate completely and I would bet that the loveless fake weekend happy family routine is going to generate more resentment and deep unhappiness in both you and your W.

Have you read DB? I really think it is an amazing way of navigating the devastating rejection by your spouse, amazing because it turns devastation into opportunity, and because it gets you out of the role of being part of the problem, part of why your marriage failed. It gives you things to work on and learn from. It can cause your W to reconsider when over time she notices you aren't really the way she had built you up in her mind as.

Is there anything you might want to learn to do better in your intimate relationships, anything you would like to do differently starting now? Five Love Languages is very eye opening.

I encourage you, for the sake of your daughter, to not live your life entirely sacrificed and devoted to her. That is a lot of pressure on a little person. She needs a dad who is his own person, whole, confident and healthy, to teach her how to be her own. Even though you think you're putting on a convincing act for her, wouldn't it be nice to be real for her and teach her real life with grace and love?

[2little2late]

Well I am thoroughly confused here. I have given in to the fact that I cannot change my wife's mind to work on our marriage. After all of my pleading this was her last email to me:

I know. You are a wonderful person Wayne. I am sorry for all my faults and limitations. And for not being the person you hoped I would be. That lawsuit really changed me as a person and not for the better I don't think. I am sorry i did not communicate better or in a way you understand. i guess we don't each other as well as we thought. I just feel like my life is slipping away. And I want to live it before I can't anymore. And I want that for you too.

This was mine to her:

Carey,

I hope that you had a good time with Lisa. You left on difficult terms with me trying to convince you to think my way but I have heard you. I understand that you don’t want to try and salvage our marriage. That you just want to get out of it and this house and you feel trapped in both. That you have been left out of almost every major decision in our lives but this choice to better yourself is something that you have thought long and hard about and you will not back down from.
I can see it in your eyes and can hear it in your voice how serious you are.
I know that what you are doing is very tough for you and takes a lot of courage. You are trying to do what’s best and I will not criticize you and try and stop you from moving on with your life.
Don’t worry about me and how I will react. I have no choice in this matter than to do what is right for us as a whole. Your happiness will directly affect Malaya’s happiness and her feeling of being loved by both of us.
I will not do anything to upset that.
Being upset Friday night was because of my assumption that we were starting to connect again. It was my mistake. I thought that there was a chance for us but after waking up from sleep you were still not home and with no call to me I was worried and upset.
You have been very clear about your feelings and what you want. I understand now that I have no right to those feelings anymore as hard as it may be and I am sorry. I won’t do that again.
I don’t want to stand in your way to find happiness and since we have Malaya I want to be as involved with her as I possibly can. I have really grown to love your family as my own. I was very upset by the finality of our conversation yesterday. It was a bad reaction. Losing you is not what I want but if I can’t have you as my lover and wife then being a friend and the best parent that I can to Malaya is what I want to be.
As drastic a turnaround as this may seem I guess I realize that no matter what our relationship is her emotional wellbeing is truly what is important as we move forward. Like I said, I would give my life for her, without hesitation.
I would rather be your friend and have a life close to Malaya than a bitter and frustrated person and not. We have seen in Joey how a lousy dad can affect a good kid. I don’t want that for her.
Let’s do what it takes to protect her innocence. I will do whatever it takes because life without Malaya would be hell and I am thankful that you are giving me this chance to be involved.
Carey the pressure is off. I do hear you and respect your wishes. I know that what you are doing is extremely difficult and you feel is what is best for us as a whole to move forward.
You are right. I need to just accept this so I can move on also and be a part of Malaya’s life.
We can talk and figure this out when the dust settles.


Me
Since then my daughter has been away with her grandparents and I have implemented "Sandi2's 37 Rules" but now what? Should I just keep up with that while I reread the book and now 5LL?

[lost_hope]

From what I read on here when you have kids you just go dim. You only address the W for thing related to the kid, the house, finances (necessary things). Yes re-read and try to impliment 180/DB techniques. And don't beat yourself up about your decision. No one can tell you what's best for your child. My H and l are doing a similar thing for my baby that's going to be born in a month. We're fully prepared to sacrifice "happiness" to give him as much normalcy and stability as we can in this messed up circumstance.

[adinva]

Yes those sound like good next steps. You write a lot to your w about how important her happiness is, in order for your daughter to be happy and secure. What you dont seem to understand is that your feelings matter too, just as much. You seem resigned to living in misery. Stop the black and white thinking. Your daughter needs a happy dad too.

A lot of people here start out with a very specific view of happiness that requires specific actions and feeling on the part of their WAS. They think they need their WAS in order to live. Even crumbs would be enough. Over time here, if you follow along certain threads, you will see it is possible to be happy and at peace no matter what your W does or feels. It is called saving yourself. It may save your marriage, it may not, but sacrificing yourself is not saving your marriage, and lecturing and arguing is not saving your marriage.

This site has thousands of posts for a reason. These people and these ideas can help you become a happy whole healthy individual any woman would be a fool to leave. One whose soul is not going to shrivel up and die if she leaves anyway. One who works at only the things within his control, who can release the things that are not.

What your w think feels and does are not within your control. Let them go. Let them be what they are, they will change.

Everyone here has started with a spouse who is DONE. Yours is no different. She has had to work hard to convince you because you were arguing and pleading so much, so she had to give you the dead eyes and the harsh words to get you to listen. But no one here can predict the future. Arguing and fighting her will push her away. Letting her go, validating her feelings, and turning over a new leaf -for you- will demonstrate to her that you are not what she had come to expect. She may be curious. Her heart may soften.

Feelings change. But she would only look back if she thought marriage to you would be different and better than before. What would you do differently? What can you do starting now to change yourself? What about you do you think you would need to change to be attractive to a potential future date? Why werent you that for your w?

A lot of us got lazy, complacent, rude, or thoughtless in our marriages. It takes a lot of time and practice to become a better person but it is so worth it. Doing it only to win back your w is a recipe for failure because she will think, and probably rightly so, that it will all slip away again in time. The trick is to fix yourself with no hope or expectation of your W, just for you. Be the very best man, the dad, the human being you can be. What a great thing that will be for your daughter.

You believe you put on a convincing act, but your sad sack words of resignation and sacrifice must or will eventually show through. Your integrity demands that you correct your thoughts because that is where your feelings originate, so that your inside matches your outside. Stop acting like a victim, a jellyfish at the mercy of the currents of W's decisions. Find inner peace and happiness regardless of your situation. It can be done but it isnt easy and it takes time and practice.

Sandi's rules are a great place for you to be right now. Some i dont much care for because they seem like game playing. I want you to honestly take care of and find yourself. Look for the rules that help you feel as good about yourself as possible. I see that you are using your daughter to prop you up; you've been badly hurt. Your feelings matter. Process them, work them out at the gym, help yourself heal by taking focus off your w and onto you: with a new hobby, a new group of friends, better health and fitness. Your w wants space, give her all the space she needs. Dont bring up the relationship and if she does try to listen and validate only. She is not interested in your feelings right now, do not push them on her. Back off emotionally, detach. Look at the rules that seem to address these concepts and focus on them above the others.

In your marriage, it sounds like the physical separation has been a problem allowing you to grow apart. Your priority was work first, then it sounds like daughter next, your marriage farther down the list. What do you think needs to change? What else have you learned from W about what was wrong with your marriage?

If i am right that your absence played a role, then your 180s might involve being present. Not in a pushy intrusive way bc right now W dies not want you. But in an optional way. Like: W, im taking some vacation from work to do a fun camping trip to bond with D and if you want the time to yourself thats fine but i want you to know youre welcome to come, no strings attached, just simple fun.

I chose that example to show gal, initiative, fun, spontaneity, prioritizing family, but nonthreatening and no pressure. Option to stay home clear; welcome to come along clear. Her choice and you dont care one bit which one she chooses. Because youre doing it for YOU. And then really live up to that. Shut down any relationship discussion with "w i hear how unhappy youve been and i do wish id done a few things differently but this trip is a vacation from all that so i would like to hold off on the deep discussion if you dont mind. Wanna play rummy?" I'm sort of acting this out to guve you some clear examples but i would like you to think of your own ideas that ring true for you.

Tell me, what are you going to do first to work toward a pma (positive mental attitude)?

[adinva]

I took so long typing on my phone that i didnt see Hope's reply ahead of mine. When i said those sound like goid next steps i was referring to your suggestions, sandis rules, reread dr, read 5LL. Those sound good. I agree with hope that its best to go dim now while your D is away. Give your w loads of space right now to avoid looking like youre pursuing her.

Its tough if absence was a flaw of the marriage, to use absence as a db tool. Db is solution based, try something for a while and if it doesnt have a positive effect, try something else. Maybe use this time to go start your new hobby, be surprisingly occupied and pleasantly busy, and insert one brief option to do something together for amusement, to see if this gets a positive response. Not constant, not daily, just one invitation in a week of mostly being out getting a life.

In the weeks after my bomb, both my kids went away to camp and i was stuck home with my h and my fragile emotional state. I took the break from parenting and did a major physical thing every day, and breezily invited h. "H," i said, i'm going on a long [hike, bikeride, workout at the gym]. Wanna go too?" He went about two times and we chit chatted but almost entirely stayed off the subject of what was happening with us.

You can see from my sig that did not bring us back together. What it did do, though, was show my H that every time we were together wasnt going to be an emotional painful discussion with tears. I was still a human, and fun to be around, and he was welcome to sit at home glum but i wasnt going to. It was good for me. It helped our sitch because h didnt feel he had to keep being mean to me for me to "get" how done he was.