Does it matter if its WAW or MLC, treat the same?

[Thumpered]

tyvm both uR, and 25,

My kids are old enough to ask questions and understand whats going on, I think my daughter spends more time trying to figure out what my wife is doing than I used too. My daughter has told her, according to wife, that she's very disappointed with my wife. I don't try to talk about whats going on, but if they ask questions I try to be honest with them (recommended from my IC).

Is that wrong? I don't paint a victims picture of myself, just that mom needs some time to figure things out. I tell them that we wouldn't be here if I didn't used to work so much in the first place. We just never made the time for ourselves, but it has nothing to do with you (meaning my kids). I don't know how else to talk to them about it. Any different recommendations?

I was gonna ask my IC about more guidelines regarding it today, but she called last minute to say she had to cancel due to a "crisis" situation, and needed to run someone to hospital. She'd call me tomorrow and make it up to me. I still need to help my kids work together, they have some anger and abandonment issues themselves regarding the last 5 months, and I was gonna bring them with me today to the IC. They seems angry at the world sometimes, which is understandable, but not healthy or helpful in any way.

[chasingpavements]

Hi Thumpered, it sounds like you are doing a great job of doing your 180's and taking care of yourself. It is great that you and your daughter are developing a closer bond, that is wonderful! To me you are handling the children well with regards to talking about what is going on between you and your W. Just do as you are doing, being available to them, to spend lots of time with them and let them know that you are there for them no matter what, and will always be. And let them know that they can always ask you any questions, and that they can talk to you about whatever is bothering them. Things in their life are changing, so just remain a constant that they can count on.

[lovethehub]

Keep up the good work!

[Thumpered]

I'm gonna give you some info that I've found from reading thru at least 15 different marriage help websites about a WAS.

For the first 3-4 months, NOTHING you do or say it gonna make a bit of difference. The spouse will spew, rewrite, try to justify, and generally not care much about the sitch. Anything you do those first few months towards the marriage, even if you think its helping, is NOT. In fact, your just making your work harder and you'll be helping the spouse form excuses about not listening to their desire for time and space. Detaching is almost impossible, but probably the most important thing you can do for yourself, cause "fixing it" just isn't gonna happen.

I really think the first few months is a time that you need to really focus on yourself/family. There will come a time shortly after that a window will open of self doubt in the spouse. If you've been working on yourself, the spouse will be challenging themselves during this window. I think this is the stage the WAS starts to consider more the idea of breaking up the family, wondering if they can make it without you, or the slight twinkle that maybe its worth saving.

This is a key stage, and obviously a stage that can really make or break the future. There are no guarntees either way of course. But its the point that I really think you can help yourself or hurt yourself in their eyes. If you've been doing the work, more doubt might creep in, and if not, they will detach further. Its still not over either way, but at this point you've created more work, or made it more difficult for them to end the M. The patience that you've showed before is nothing like the ride your gonna be taking now. This is the also the stage that I think "Make yourself the person your spouse would be crazy to leave" really starts hitting home.

Your work is still just getting started thou, cause at this point the doubt might be there, but trust comes into play. Trust that the changes your making are permanent. This stage can take a LONG time depending on your own unique sitchs and how much trouble the marriage was in before BD. Its over the next few months that the changes we make must be real, and not an attempt to just placate, and are really scrutinized. Now only time, effort, patience and positivity are your friends, you still have absolutely NO control over whats gonna happen. From what I've read about the differences is a MLC and a WAS. MLC can take years to get thru before you might even see positive steps, if you see them at all. And really has nothing to do with you.

The WAS is almost the opposite, its all about you, and the damage of your marriage. You ARE the reason they're willing to walk away. It also seems to have a much shorter cycle than dealing with a MLC spouse. A WAS was considering BD months or years BEFORE you got word, so for their part, maybe half the work is already done in their eyes. Can you change it around, sure. You know the mistakes/issues. This is where the labeling doesn't matter. You have to go about your DB'n the same. Cause those changes are for you, and if they help the marriage GREAT, but don't expect them to fix it. That's not up to you.

Out of all the websites i'd read thru that I could find WAS listed. There was only about 125 specific stories, and I know by no means that means much as some don't label, some don't know, and some don't care about putting it into a category. But I kept track of what progress was listed. There was roughly a 25% success rate, a 45% failure rate, and a 30% rate of limbo. Even those numbers are scewed. To be a success, you had to be long term piecing, for failure the spouse was with another person long term or divorced already. Those situations don't really mean crap as we all know piecing can fail still, and we know that some divorced or in other relationships can still come back.

But what amazed me is more about the first 3 months and the second 3 months. Like I said above, those first 3 months theres just nothing you can do to make much of a diffence (although you can do an incredible amount of damage) your aren't getting them back in that window no matter what you do. The second 3 months is the ground work for the rest of the process, hopefully you've been doing the work, learned some patience, and are in detachment mode. Its still unlikely the spouse comes home (or theres a failure at piecing), but during this 2nd 3 months the work better be well under way on your own part. After this 3 months the work is still just getting started, I think this is the stage the LBS doubt starts to creep in. (5-7 months)

If some positives are gathered from that 2nd 3 months, the LBS is more willing to give it more time. But if not, the LBS starts to wonder if they can do it, or why there doing it.

By no means is any of this scientific, proof, denial, or something to use as a standard. Some of the assumptions are VERY general to say the least. And each situation is unique. The damage varies from marriage to marriage, mitigating circumstances are also varibles.

What it all comes down to..........is you have to DB, and you have to do it for yourself. Cause whether your marriage makes it or not, changes have to be made. Those changes are going to effect the rest of your life, your interactions with friends and family, and your future relationship (albeit with your spouse or someone new). You can worry all you want about your current situation, but until those changes are made, and made permanent NOTHING is gonna make a difference.

Myself, im currently sitting at about 5.5 months, the doubt and the positivity (in my mind) both have their ways at times in my head. I have to beat both back. I have to constantly remember that the only control I have, is myself. That im going to focus on being a better me/parent/friend, even if I wasn't lacking in some of those departments before. I can always be a better me. I have to remember that i'm only half at fault as to why i'm here, but theres not much I can do or change regarding the other half.

That if im making my changes, im also becoming comfortable with myself that I can make it either way. That even if it doesn't make it, im gonna be one HECK of a spouse for someone else. I need to get to the point that the loss would not be mine, but my spouses. That only I can take care of myself, and I cant count on anyone else to do it for me.

When it comes down to it, it is ALL about me.

[MileHigh]

That was a fantastic, and very thorough summary. Very helpful and informative! Thanks for sharing all of your research and experiences.

[Verum]

Thumpered, I love this, well written!

I think the differences between WAS and MLC and what you write are good, but I would qualify what you said about MLC slightly to say it has “very little” to do with the spouse. I say this because many long-term marriages do get stale and a MLC spouse will emphasize any problems in the marriage. Doing 180's will remove these problems as reasons for the MLC spouse to leave.

For a MLC Spouse, DB-ing gives them the time and space for them to address their own problems. The actions I took as part of DB-ing have relieved the pressure on my W such that she went from “I’m going to leave/divorce you” to “I’m staying, but I’m still missing those loving feelings.” I don’t see anything that I can do, to change this attitude because much of my W’s internal turmoil and unhappiness is not about me or our Marriage.

Consequently, I do think it is important to assess whether it is WAS or MLC because with a MLCer, your actions will not resolve the problems and lead to reconciliation. With a MLCer, your actions relieve the pressure on the MLCer, give time for the MLCer to work through their issues, and if you have sufficient patience and IF the MLCer works through their issues, then you’ll be there available for reconciliation.
In my case, I feel more strongly than ever that my W is MLC. Her focus for a few months has been how unhappy she is with her career and how she regrets not going to medical school and being a doctor. This has nothing to do with me.

Some other indicators of MLC that I’ve picked up in my reading are:

1. She says she is unhappy and feels lost and empty inside
2. She is discontent with her life, bored and wants a new life and marriage
3. She is not sure she wants to be a wife or a mother anymore
4. She loses weight, diets, goes to the gym daily and is obsessive about exercise
5. She suddenly pays a lot of attention to her appearance
6. She spends like crazy, buying herself new clothes and other stuff
7. She seeks cosmetic surgery and other ways to appear younger and prettier
8. She act flirtatious with other men, any other men!
9. She wants a car that doesn’t say mommy
10. She focuses on herself and is extremely selfish
11. She is sarcastic, easily agitated and quick to find fault with people close to her
12.She acts like she is single – trys to go out every evening, drinks more, clubs/bars, has younger friends who are single


My W does all of these things. Can your actions change this? No, but you can relieve the pressure. I now drive the minivan, and I have not heard my W complain anymore or talk about buying a new sports car (which she was talking about several months ago). Will this action make her love me? No. Will it shorten the time in MLC? probably not. It just makes the current situation more tolerable for both of us.

[TSquared2]

Love this:

With a MLCer, your actions relieve the pressure on the MLCer, give time for the MLCer to work through their issues, and if you have sufficient patience and IF the MLCer works through their issues, then you’ll be there available for reconciliation.

and the list, well, I think W had it tattooed in her frontal cortex ...aside from drinking and partying, but definitely single in the cyber-world and RL as far as the "other men, ANY other men" were concerned.

Think that goes in my scrape and paste library of mlc...lol.

[25yearsmlc]

Two questions.

Since your focus is the same regardless, what difference does all this analysis make?

It gives some people hope...and maybe that's good. And maybe that's not.

Because if the focus ought to be on the one person you can control and helping any children involved stay stable as best as possible, why bother with all this? IT DETRACTS FROM YOUR OWN WORK and let's face it...some of us want to detract from our role in this, turn away from our own flaws, but we must not.

Second, I see a HUGE OVERLAP in the "symptoms" of both MLC and WAS.

Both tend to blame the LBSer and both prepare for the single life by making their appearance better. Both tend to lose weight and start "acting younger" b/c both might be single soon...or at least want to check out the scene out there.

I could go on, but my point remains this: I spent way way too much time on WHY my h was doing what he was doing and whether he was in MLC or a WAH or just a selfish guy I had not noticed before, etc.

When I finally turned the focus on MY LIFE and what I could do about it, it's the only thing that made ME and my kids begin to find our way without him. And to plan on being happy, regardless of what his choices were.
And we did.


Paradoxically, letting them go, seems to be the only way they MIGHT come back. No guarantees, and there never were, but you are in a better place either way.

Either way...but imo, the endless analysis of THEIR choices and THEIR wants, takes the focus off the only person you can and ought to control, YOU.

And be there for the kids. That has to be THE priority...not the absent spouse. You have to reassure your kids that the absent parent does love them, which is almost always true anyhow and even if not, why tell a child that?

It's a lot to be your best self as their parent AND try to compensate for the abasent one; the analysis is a waste of time in my opinion.

I really do not get the point. I look at that first year of our sep as me wasting precious time on my H, and not getting anywhere either, and slowing my own happiness and my children's, which I still regret.

Good luck but, can you please tell me why WHY this matters so much to you?

I mean it did pre-occupy me back in 06, but even I realized after awhile it simply made no difference in MY COURSE OF ACTION...And life is short as it is.

So I spent NO more time on HIS choices, and ALL my time on GAL and my kids.

THAT made the most difference in all our lives.

[25yearsmlc]

regarding the kids...and an over all attitude, here's what helped me.

I planned for the worst and hoped for the best.

That meant I assumed my h would not return though I was privately open to it...and I assumed also that I WOULD BE HAPPY ANYHOW...and started to do the things I needed to do to achieve that.

I encouraged my kids to contact their dad but did not force it (well, not often but on occasion I DID)

I never openly bad mouthed him. I did sometimes say "he's confused...worked very hard all these years and has pent up demand to explore..." Which was true and not that applicable to me b/c I had been a lot wilder before I met him.

My biggest regret now that we are together, is that I did not bring my kids along with me on the "forgiveness road".

So if you and your w do begin to reooncile or piece, take them along in some way.

Good luck,

(((( )))

[Verum]

Two questions.

Since your focus is the same regardless, what difference does all this analysis make?

It gives some people hope...and maybe that's good. And maybe that's not.

I think this is a good question, and have seen it raised before. I see understanding the difference as helping you in the following ways:

1. If your spouse is WAS, then the issues are mostly marriage/relationship issues and 180s should have a greater impact. If your spouse is MLCer, then 180s will have less impact because many of the issues are of identity and internal to the MLCer.

2. The time frame seems to be very different with MLC much longer. Useful to know to help with acceptance.

3. MLC might not end?

The first point I think is important because if your 180s don't have impact after awhile with a WAS, you might be more ready to question whether you're doing the right 180s. For a MLC, I think that the 180s don't matter as much. In my case, my W has said that "she likes me much better now" and that "she has observed a tremendous change in me."

I find myself asking whether I can stay like this for 2-3 more years? I also find myself asking whether my W will ever resolve some of her issues? These are important questions for me to ask myself and understanding whether it is WAS or MLC helps in identifying the issues and possible outcomes.

With that I do think your advice about focusing on yourself to be good.