I don't have anything to add as I have been down that road with you in the past.
I don't know what it will take, but perhaps finding successful couples in long term Ms might help you understand what it really does take to have a life long, happy M.
I read this entire thread finally, haven't got to any previous threads thou. But with what I've read, and I'm sorry if this sounds bad. What is the current situation? Is someone in a MLC here? Cause I can't figure out where this marriage is supposedly going and I don't want to guess. Do you know?
From reading the posts it seems very stuck, but with no direction and no hope. It's a very different read from the usual posts. At the start you seem happy if you both just realized you were incompatible? So thus I have to ask, are you trying to save your marriage? You seem content to let it die a slow death, I'm sorry if that comes off as crude or insensitive.
Again I'm sorry for my interpretation, but maybe you can tell me what your goals are now or how they've changed recently. What are you hoping to accomplish? If your original thoughts are still heavy on your mind, then why not just set your spouse free.
I guess your answers are not for me as much as they are for you to answer for yourself. I wish you the best, and hope the conclusions you come to will truly make you happy.
Btw love is not logical, it's spontaneous, unconditional, and unpredictable. That's what's so great about being in that place. It's freeing from the confines of life's routine.
"Your alternative response is pretty close to right on. The differences are irrelevant. I'm afraid that halfway through my saying that, H would have just heard, "blah... blah... blah... criticism... blah... blah... blah. superiority... blah... blah... blah... and shut down. "
So what? Why are you predicting and controlling his response? IF he were to respond in that manner, THEN you could respond in an authentic way: "H, I'm trying so hard to share my feelings and it is scary. It seems to me that you are checking out and I feel very abandoned by you and even more hopeless about our R."
Actually, there are lots of ways to try to change this. You could by a journal, label it "Conversation in our Marriage," and on page one write: "H, I'm lucky that you are better at forgiving than I am. Let me try our earlier conversation again. This is scary for me, and I find this way of sharing less threatening and it allows me to be less reactive."
Or you could email the same thing.
Or you could talk to him.
Suppose he replies: "What do you want me to do?"
That seems a very loving question. Why are you scared of it? How would you answer? How can he meet your needs if you don't know them yourself?
More important, is there anything he COULD do? Methinks not, or very little. The place to start is with you working to be in a healthier place out of denial.
As for logic, your misdirection tactics will not work with me. But, you might notice that your 50% argument works just as well for H as it does for you, which is not very well (logically speaking). Yet, I'd be much more attracted to and interested in a person who looked at what it took to make 50% of marriages healthy, loving, happy, vibrant partnerships than the one interested in exploiting the other side of the argument to stay stuck, withholding, and punishing.
"Would it have been alright if I simply responded, "Yes, that's correct, I don't you to garden with me", and have that be the end of the discussion?"
Sure, nothing wrong with acknowledging that you don't like to garden with him. I guess that could have been the end of the discussion, but why would you want to shut that down rather than exploring it further if he wanted to?
Try to get back to a humble place. It is the most healing place to be. Hugs.
FWIW, I'm an atheist. I don't think I've ever quoted scripture. But there is a reason the world religions inform morality and ethics: they all include deep insights worth paying attention to that help guide us toward better lives.
Maybe it would help to read these several interpretations of Corinthians 13, maybe just think about one a day, they have different emphases and offer different interpretations. All seem valuable.
"So what? Why are you predicting and controlling his response?" Because it doesn't seem like there would be much value in talking to someone that's not listening, especially on something as sensitive as baring my soul like that.
"What can he do?" He can stop bringing up the gardening. I've asked him to stop bringing it up, but he still does. It's a wound that hasn't been left alone long enough for it to heal.
"Sure, nothing wrong with acknowledging that you don't like to garden with him. I guess that could have been the end of the discussion, but why would you want to shut that down rather than exploring it further if he wanted to?" Because there's nothing to explore. We've discussed it a thousand times before. I don't want to, I've explained to him why, I've asked him to stop bringing it up and (like the paragraph above) gone into deep personal explanation of why it hurts when he brings it up. Does the wound really need to be opened and dissected every time he brings it up again? Is there some value to it that I'm missing?
Humble. I'm going to have to do some reading on that because I can't imagine being more humble. Maybe I'm confusing depression and self-doubt and fear and confusion and a bunch of other things, but I'm virtually dysfunctional right now because I'm afraid of doing something else wrong. I was just looking up Asperger's and social filters because some of the feedback I get leads me to believe I'm not fit for social interaction. Even my questioning my own logic is interpreted as "misdirection tactics."
I'm missing something. Or everything. I'm beginning to feel like I should just have myself committed and be done with it. I'm starting to cry right now and my son is here and I don't want him to see it, so I'm going to signoff, for a while. I thank you for your attempts. I know you mean well. It's me, I accept that, I just can't seem to grasp what to do to fix it.
Hey CV. I'm on the road a buch these days and post (minimallly) in Surviving.
A few thoughts from your response to me...
First, I don't think it's compassion that allows someone to tolerate abuse. It may be based in fear, but it is essentially cowardice and cruelty. I believe it is the furthest thing from kindness to allow a dynamic where another person acts out their worst selves. From a spiritual perspective, it is not love, but rather abandonment, at best, and when engaging and egging them on it's more like enticement into damnation. Anyway, not compassionate at all, though one could try to take a logical path to that conclusion. That's a perfect argument for the limitations of logic.
I will point out that you used to want H to garden with you. You've since changed your mind. If you're allowed to change your mind, then you have to allow for the possibility of H changing his mind.
As for what non-lawyer conversation might look like, I found a short little book that I could wrap my logical brain around. It's called Non-Violent Communication. The focus is on identifying feelings and underlying needs, distinguishing between needs and strategies, taking good care of yourself, and getting what you want. Very simple concepts, simple implementation steps. Difficult to practice. Good brain exercise. It's by Marshall Rosenberg.
The non-lawyer convo might have you trying to pay attention to H's feelings and underlying needs (as well as your own).
H: You won't let me garden with you.
CV: Yes, I prefer to garden alone these days. You seem sad/angry/frustrated by this?
H: Yes!
CV: Because it's important to you to spend time together? You are missing having physical and emotional closeness?
H: ...
CV: I've been hurt and disappointed by our previous attempts to garden together. It's important to me to have [my garden time]/[time we spend together] be pleasant and relaxing. Would you be willing to ...?
Rosenberg says that people are only ever saying one of two things: "Please" or "Thank you". So, all of us, regardless of the words that come out, are either trying to express gratitude or ask for something. We are trying to get our needs met. Usually in very ineffective ways. MWD says, "Do what works." Rosenberg says the same and offers some steps that make it more likely that we'll be successful when we're asking for what we want. Interestingly, he's also adamant that we should not do things we don't want to.
I remember that when you came back from a visit with friends you were looking through a softer lens for a bit. It's hard to hang on to that, but you at least had a glimpse of it.
CV, you are no more or less wholly responsible for your R problems than H. Be compassionate toward yourself.
Rather than trying to put it all on yourself or all on H, the healing of an R lies in partnership, shared ownership of the problems and shared work on the solutions.
