Becoming PatientMan II - Still En-Route, Post-D

[PatientMan]

Couple questions for you:

What are YOU doing for YOU right now?

Not much. The only things "for me" I take care of regularly are nutrition and exercise.

It's buried in one of my older threads, but:

• I work 50-60 hours per week. (A legitimate 50-60 hours per week, not the kind where people count when they leave home and when they get back home.) I'm up at 5 every day.
• I'm getting my MBA at night from a top-10 business school (nationally ranked, inclusive of private universities). Class doesn't even let out until 9:30pm, so on those nights I don't even walk through my front door until after 10. Tack on all the extra work associated with these classes that I have to find time for throughout the week and I'm already spent.
• Every chance I get that I'm not at work or on campus, I go see my girls. I like to lead their nightly devotionals, tuck them into bed, and pray with them individually right before they go to sleep. It's their choice who says the prayer - them or me.
• On weekends I have one date with one of my daughters. It rotates between the four of them, but I get one every week. There are countless benefits to this, but a few major ones are the one-on-one time, the consistent example that I care about each one of them individually, and setting an example of how a date is supposed to treat them (for later on when they're 30 and I allow them to date).
• XW works on Saturday and Sunday mornings, so the D's and I spend time together then. We go to the park, the pool, church, we go through their weekly chores, they have special educational assignments from Dad, etc.
• I usually take the kids one weekend night as well. I want them to feel comfortable at my place and also give XW a rest. Yes, she "chose" to essentially be a single mom, but it's tough and I'm empathetic to that. Once I get a bigger place this will be much easier on my end anyway.

I've tried and tried to reach out to old friends, but it's been hard. Most are busy doing what I wish I was doing: spending time at home with their wife and kids. I've found that I can't count on some "friends" (so I dropped them), and others are just generally busy as well. But I've certainly made the effort. Perhaps moving back into the old neighborhood will help in this effort.

Also helping in this effort will be completing my MBA in December, freeing up TIME for me.

I'm sure someone can find some shred of me making excuses, but for the most part, I'm pretty busy with an extremely demanding schedule. So GAL for me hasn't been very plausible since BD.

It's funny. I think of how incredible the relationship between me and XW was and I honestly think it was responsible for at least several marriages that may or may not have happened otherwise. People were jealous of what we had, saw that "it" was possible, and tried to recreate it for themselves.

What GAL activities are you planning this weekend?

Nothing.

Saturday I'm going to drive the kids an hour away to meet up with my sister who is traveling through on her way to California. I have my date with D9. We have church on Sunday. We'll probably hit up the pool.

This may not be healthy, but honestly I want to see my girls as much as possible, and I feel guilty if I have free time and am not there spending it with them. If you want to dig deeper, my parents didn't spend a lot of time with me, and I want to be the dad that showed them how to live life, that gave them memories, and was always there for them.

Upcoming events:

• I'm taking the 4 D's to the beach next Monday through Wednesday. This will be a bit of a challenge with 4 girls under 12 at the ocean and no other adult to help, but we'll manage and I'll make sure we all have a good time.
• The following Saturday, I'm taking all the D's to my parents out of state and dropping them off for a week. I'm not sure if I'll see XW during this week - I haven't given it any thought and we haven't discussed it.

Last night I was going to point out that your last several pages have been a lot about your W, what she's doing, how she's behaving, and the impacts it's having on you. I understand wanting to talk about our S's but it's time to start talking about YOU again. Seems she has a lot of control over you and how you are feeling. Time to take charge of you my friend.

You are probably right. I see her in pain and it hurts me. I think about what she's done and it hurts me. Right now I'm hurting a lot. I'm lonely and busy and I miss my wife and my best friend, so I've probably been focusing too much on her and slipping back into "I wish things were..." mode.

It's difficult to see her in pain and feel like she's reaching out to me for help, and to not do anything. She still cries a lot. BUT, I am extremely unemotional around her. I listen and validate and comfort, but my emotions are turned off. I welcome her emotions and am guarded with my own.

I do feel I can easily be replaced from an emotional needs perspective (insecurity).

What exactly are you afraid of? You stated that she may never open up to you again but that isn't the answer.

I'm not so sure. I'm afraid I'll never get her back, and the crazy part is I'm so upset with her it would be difficult for me to accept her back. But I would go through the work to do it.

What are you afraid of in your life if this happens?
What happens if your fear comes true?

A lifetime full of regret.

Boundaries - They are set up to protect you. Which boundaries are you looking to set up? No touching, no flirting, no leading on, etc... What is the consequence you are willing to enforce (no communication, etc...)?

I feel like I should set up boundaries that protect both of us. Like I said before, back rubs, cuddling, ML...those types of things would have to stop if one of us were to get involved with another person. So both of us miss and are seeking intimacy with someone who we love and are attracted to, but are setting ourselves up for pain and disappointment if and when someone else comes into the picture.

I DO feel like she's cake eating. The following isn't a fair assessment, but to summarize the last 18 months:

• She told me I had to move out because my problems were too bad and she was done.
• OM was discovered.
• I was told she wanted to work on things with me, but she still needed space and time to process things.
• I moved out.
• She begins contact with OM again.
• I explicitly set the terms of our marriage.
• She breaks those terms, though she doesn't know that *I* know this.
• She strung me and the kids along until she felt she could handle herself financially.
• She divorced me.

That doesn't paint her in a very good light, I don't think it represents her as a person, and there's a LOT more to it than that (of course), but that's what transpired.

But here's the quagmire. If she's testing things out. If she's flirting and wanting contact for the REAL THING, then those boundaries get in the way. So maybe I don't WANT to set boundaries because I'm afraid it'll send the message that her advances aren't wanted, which isn't true if they are REAL.

But I need to do what's right, not make decisions based upon unrealistic possibilities that may be detrimental and hurtful.

-PM

[PatientMan]

I'm sitting here, at my desk, and I realize that it's been 18 months and this still consumes my every undistracted thought.

Whew. This is tiring.

Giving up and moving on as if there is no chance whatsoever seems easier, but I don't know if I can live with myself if I do that. So I choose this.

And I'm tired.

***

This just in. I have a couple of confidants. One of them just wrote me this regarding boundaries (she has no knowledge of DB'ing):

First we have to establish a reasonable goal. So what is the goal here? I'd say something like trying to establish autonomy of some sort. She needs to feel like she's doing things herself and is on her own. You need to be able to move on with your life without always wondering what she's up to, who she's with and if she's ok. You both need to establish friends aside from each other, even if you were still together. When you see each other every night, that doesn't facilitate either of you getting together with any other friend or establishing any kind of autonomy. That's something to look at.

You also have physical boundary issues. She's pushing way beyond what is appropriate and because you still love and want her, one moment of not being in control could cause a whole slew of grief. You need to protect you and you'll be protecting her by putting up physical boundaries.

I'd say texting and phone conversations should be discussed too. No photos back and forth. If one of you takes some photos of the kids, that's fine. Send it by email once a week or something. Maybe text at one point in the day only if it's related to coordinating kids within short period of time. Otherwise maybe communicate once a day if that (maybe every other day). But definitely not throughout the day and nothing [personal like she has been sending you].

I'm not saying any of these need to last forever. But right now the relationship you do have with her is sticky. There's clinging attachment making everything confusing. I would suggest that you set some pretty firm boundaries, over and above what you would think you would like to maintain for the long-term and do that for a couple of months. At least until some of the emotion calms down. Then you can sit down again, talk about how those two months went and what might be a more long-term plan. But I think the boundaries need to start out more severe than it will be later just to get past that stickiness period. Until you are in a new routine and both able to function a little more smoothly.

That certainly sounds reasonable, but feel free to opine while I go to the restroom and throw up from thinking about that.

-PM

[jp787]

So both of us miss and are seeking intimacy with someone who we love and are attracted to, but are setting ourselves up for pain and disappointment if and when someone else comes into the picture.

I am struggling with boundaries right now also. I know I need them so that I can clear my head and work on me and I have the same fear that setting some that are 180's will backfire. I think after long thought that they do need to be set, with clear communication that they are boundaries in place to allow us to each focus on ourselves and only that, at least that is my thought for me.

That certainly sounds reasonable, but feel free to opine while I go to the restroom and throw up from thinking about that.

You do make me laugh

Thank you for pushing me.

[PatientMan]

My response to my sister:

So what you’re saying, which I forgot to mention, is that I should emotionally abandon her now, even though that’s what drove her away in the first place? (That’s a tough one – always been my biggest hurdle). Maybe that makes sense because we’re divorced? And/or now that she’s seen the real me again, she’ll figure out what she’s missing, and maybe that’ll be something.

Her reply:

Not abandoning. Right now the relationship you have together is toxic and is not allowing either of you to heal as an individual. She is perpetually holding you near while professing to want to stand on her own. She's confused and needs help. But that help can't be you because it carries with it so much history and emotion that she can't focus or stay on course. Shes spinning in her own head, going no where. Here's where the therapist would be perfect.

You are feeding on her unhealthy need of you. Not good for your growth either. You may both still love each other but you need to detox before you can establish what is truly healthy.

Talking about it with her is how you explain that you're not abandoning her, you are hoping to help her help herself. Maybe meet to talk alone once every couple weeks if you think it would help you both but not at her house. Some neutral place - dinner out or something.

But the habit of you always being present and available, i think, has to be broken to move forward, regardless of whether you stay separate or work things out.

I think I'm afraid to "officially" set boundaries because it will solidify that things will never be the same between us. Right now she is reaching out to me, even though she says she wants independence, and yes, I like that. But no, this isn't sustainable.

SHE DIVORCED ME! WHY IS THIS SO DIFFICULT?!?!?

-PM

[Mach1]

SHE DIVORCED ME! WHY IS THIS SO DIFFICULT?!?!?

Difficult ???



Because you are thinking are thinking "us" (the marriage)

And she is thinking "me,me,me"

Boundaries are for you, not you AND her

Is this healthy for YOU ?


PM, what are you doing to get past this ?

What are you doing to rock yourself out of your comfort zone ???



P.S.

Your Sister sounds pretty smart : )

[PatientMan]

And as if on cue, sandi2 posted what I needed to read (in Crimson's thread) which seems to fit perfectly:

I think that's your main problem in your stitch. You have always been available. Too available! She never had to experience how most women live after D. If she needed anything, you were there. I would get so angry at her, b/c she sounded so spoiled and selfish. She has really had a lot of cake to eat!

I know you have made tremendous changes in yourself. I believe everyone here admires you in those great accomplishments. I am certainly among them. However, I will admit that there have been many times that I wanted to reach through the computer and shake you... smile Why? B/c you have been too good to her! It doesn't work on most WAW's that left for the reasons she gave you. What did she lose due to the D? Besides the obvious comforts of life you had given her, what else? She sure didn't lose you. Ever! She had you around, and she called the shots and made sure you knew not to press your luck. She wanted you for a best friend. At what point did it change to lovers?

Crimson PM, you're a nice guy. I don't know how you may have been in the past, but you are a very nice man, now. You have been extremely available and "giving" to your XW, trying so hard to prove your changes. But in MHO, all that's left is for you to do what Bond said. She will not pursue you if you're always there at her beck & call. When you did not initiate contact with her when she went to visit family, didn't she break down to contact you? If she saw you passing her up for a better life (and the possibility of meeting a better wife), she would start to realize just how much she really wants you in her life. But she has to see that she wants you more than just a best friend who will do everything with her and son. She has to see you having a life and being happy without her. She has to see you taking son and not including her in those parent-child activities, even if she should ask in the beginning. The two of you continued as a "family" after the D, but when she didn't want you to be with her & son....she had no problem telling you! She had the best of both worlds. I seriously saw no difference after the D was final and she continued to play her games and treat you so badly. You were still available to her! That is one of the first things MWD tells the LBS....is not to be so available.....and that's before a D, so I would think it would go double after a D. Your XW is wanting that second baby, still, and she needs to realize that she can't have both....the family togetherness and a divorce. That's exactly what she has wanted and has had ever since she left you in the beginning. That's what she wants by having this second baby. She has you and the kids but she doesn't have to play the role of wife.

You can't stand to think about other men dating your XW, but don't you know that if it were turned around and knew you were dating other women that she would feel the same about you? If she didn't, then you don't need to hang on anyway. But the biggest change in her will come if she believes you are dumping her. As long as it was her dumping you, it was fine. But just you watch what happens if she sees the new Crimson PM dumping her.

Buck up, PM! Sweet Jeebus! I was vasectomized, not neutered!

-PM

[Spartan]

Your sister has some good advice and I really hope you can figure out a way to make that work for you.

I understand being super busy (maybe not as much as you have going on ) and old friends being busy with their own lives but I still think it's important to do something new. Do something where you'll meet new people.

The following Saturday, I'm taking all the D's to my parents out of state and dropping them off for a week. I'm not sure if I'll see XW during this week - I haven't given it any thought and we haven't discussed it.

Why would you need to see her? Any free time that week should be all about YOU since kids are gone.

I think I'm afraid to "officially" set boundaries because it will solidify that things will never be the same between us. Right now she is reaching out to me, even though she says she wants independence, and yes, I like that. But no, this isn't sustainable.

Sigh...things will NEVER be the same between the two of you no matter how much you want them to be. You are different, she is different, this process and the steps to get here have changed you guys for ever. Do you really even want them to be? You guys ended up here for various reasons.

I understand how bad you want to go back to "normal" with a good M and happy family because I've felt it. Fact is that right now that's not where you (or many of us) are and I feel the stress of you spinning trying to hold on to that dream. What would happen if rather then staying scared and stuck you started getting excited about your new life. Take it slow (I went a little overboard for a couple weeks with the excitement). It doesn't mean it will always be this way and it doesn't make the pain completely go away but maybe you'll start feeling like you're in control of your life and not waiting for something or someone...

But I need to do what's right, not make decisions based upon unrealistic possibilities that may be detrimental and hurtful.

Your words...

SHE DIVORCED ME! WHY IS THIS SO DIFFICULT?!?!?

Because it $ucks. Just ask yourself are you making it more difficult on yourself then it needs to be. I just don't want you standing in your own way...

[PatientMan]

Is this healthy for YOU ?

This set up, where I'm essentially relationship filler? I think the correct answer is "no", but I enjoy the friendship and her in general. There is one nugget of merit to it, but most would probably say I am digging really deep to find it.

PM, what are you doing to get past this ?

Other than whining like big baby on an anonymous message board, not much. I've continued to be emotionless around her. I've let her cry on me and been there for her - even after D (now that I think about it, this includes the night of my birthday and the night of Father's Day). And I can see the good in that (the D didn't change me, I'm still the caring man I was before), but I can also see the bad (the D didn't change me, I'm still here).

What are you doing to rock yourself out of your comfort zone ???

This weekend: boundary talk.

P.S.

Your Sister sounds pretty smart : )

I think so too. I felt she was holding back to spare my feelings, but I told her that wasn't best for me. (I still think she's holding back a little.) Just for pointless reference, she is 1 of my 4 confidants (my mother, father, her, and one friend). Outside of this MB, that's my brain-trust, and as unreliant on others as I like to be, they have really been invaluable, which came as a welcome surprise. And now that I think about it, 3 of the 4 have gone through divorce.

Thanks Mach1.

-PM

[ALF213]

Other than whining like big baby on an anonymous message board, not much.

This made me laugh.

Good luck finding your way through this, PM. Sounds like you know what you need to do, but I can understand how hard it is to actually do it.

[PatientMan]

Your sister has some good advice and I really hope you can figure out a way to make that work for you.

I understand being super busy (maybe not as much as you have going on ) and old friends being busy with their own lives but I still think it's important to do something new. Do something where you'll meet new people.

I know you are right. I will try (and try even harder after I graduate). I can list off a bunch of reasons/excuses, but I don't think anybody wants to read that. Meeting new people doesn't come easy for me, so that can be a self improvement project for me.

]Why would you need to see her? Any free time that week should be all about YOU since kids are gone.

Since this was scheduled it has come to mind several times. My thoughts have been to initiate no (zero) encounters with XW, but I'm not sure how to handle the potential, "Want to do something/come over and hang out?" question that could very well pop up.

Though after the boundaries talk this weekend, maybe there's less of a chance of this occurring. Like Crimson explained, I guess I'm just scared of creating distance, which in my case probably stems from insecurity.

Sigh...things will NEVER be the same between the two of you no matter how much you want them to be. You are different, she is different, this process and the steps to get here have changed you guys for ever. Do you really even want them to be? You guys ended up here for various reasons.

I understand how bad you want to go back to "normal" with a good M and happy family because I've felt it. Fact is that right now that's not where you (or many of us) are and I feel the stress of you spinning trying to hold on to that dream. What would happen if rather then staying scared and stuck you started getting excited about your new life. Take it slow (I went a little overboard for a couple weeks with the excitement). It doesn't mean it will always be this way and it doesn't make the pain completely go away but maybe you'll start feeling like you're in control of your life and not waiting for something or someone...

You're right again. I guess I don't know what to do with myself. I feel like a family man with no family.

Just ask yourself are you making it more difficult on yourself then it needs to be. I just don't want you standing in your own way...

Me either. There are times, like this morning, when the feelings of "hope + despair" > "my need and desire to healthfully progress". I just WANT it so badly sometimes that I blind myself to my reality.

But you all keep me in check. So does my sister. And that's good and I really appreciate it. Thank you so much.

-PM