Crimson.....Holy smokes, I'm piecing,

[Crimson]

Thanks, Mach. I'm trying to keep all of that in mind. I guess reconciliation looked to me exactly like what we were doing. Maybe to her it was about a flood of feelings coming back. Guess that might be where we are different.

Everything just seemed to implode so quickly....I still don't fully grasp it.

She just came my and loaded up all of her things and left. Ouch. Not gonna lie, that hurt. I didn't really say much to her. Just kind of kept my space and helped her when she asked.

I know I keep saying this, but I really did not see this happening. She was just moving more stuff in last week.

Trying to stay PMA.

Crimson

[sandi2]

Did she say anything about not coming back or it's not going to work?

[PatientMan]

Thanks for taking the time to reply, AS. I think that when you are sort of blind-sided you (at least ME anyway) I fall out of DB mode just out of pure shock.

As painful as it is, I think you are right - I need to just give back time and space. She is on her way to Iowa tomorrow and I will keep to myself for the most part.

It just feels so "all of a sudden". Just a few days ago we were writing down goals of things we would like to to (her request) travel, things around the house, finalizing her move here, and so on. We had even made a goal of going out a socializing with old friends and couples - which we did. Like I said, it wasn't even a week ago. I just don't see how everything turns on a dime like that. My head is spinning.

I'll try to stick to validation - but in the midst of things falling apart sometimes it feels like validating is just giving up on everything. Academically, I know better - but it just feels that way.

3-4 months ago she constantly spoke of how her condo "did not feel like home to her" and how it felt "temporary" and how she was "unsettled" there. She did NOT frame it in the most flattering or "homey" terms. But over the last few weeks the narrative shifted to "I had my routine there", "It was a home for me and S", "I like my neighborhood". All the while, we were enjoying ourselves and our family here. What happened?? Hell, we had a DATE planned for last night.

I'm calming down some, I guess. Just very hurt and need to put on the brave "as if" face again. More like dust it off. I didn't sleep well last night despite being mentally exhausted....emotionally, too.

I hope this gets better.

Crimson

You stated before that perhaps this process isn't linear, and I don't think it is. Maybe you need to learn to expect the unexpected. Know that there is a good chance she might get spooked, do your best not to be the one doing the spooking, but if it happens, go right back into healthy-Crimson mode ASAP.

Expect some seemingly irrational behavior, and then when it happens use the tools you've learned to deal with it how you know best. I think you'll be fine.

You've been hiking up the mountain under treacherous conditions. You feel like you're reaching the summit when - all of a sudden - you go around the bend and find out you're only halfway there. What do you do?

-PM

[Crimson]

She said neither of those things, Sandi. Just referred to her lack of feelings and came back today, packed up and left. Leaves town tomorrow with S. As noted, I'm just kind of in shock.

[Crimson]

I have him now and will keep him for a bit still. We went swimming and just spent quality time together.

When she is in Iowa I have no plans of reaching out to her at all. I just will keep to myself and respond if she mentions S.

She DID say she would go see a counselor. I hope that is helpful.

I do agree with you GM, I think a lot of this is her "stuff". She sees and acknowledges the work that I have done and the changes I have made. Has said it numerous times. In fact, she has been very flattering on all fronts from my changes to my appearance, to how I am as a father.

She just fell back into the whole "my feelings aren't where I had wanted them to be by now" discussion. How do I respond to that? I mean, I want to say that with where we are feelings are a CHOICE. It's almost as if she has forgotten that I had been hurt as well. I just don't believe that with all that we have been through that in 2.5 months the woozy butterflies show up again like we are a brand new couple. We had/have work to do...and it wasn't always easy.

I will fall back and try to focus on GAL again. I'm just soooooo confused by how fast she pulled out. Like I said, we were making plans for the summer just a few days ago. Ugh.

Crimson

[Crimson]

and GM, I don't want to take the burden - but my heart is in pieces without my son in my life. Going back to part-time dad again after the last few months of him being a constant in my life.....I just can't relate to you how much that tears me up. Not asking for pity.....just talkin' I guess.

[Valeska19]

Crimson,
I think you do an excellent job of validating and understanding...

I still think you are lacking in the ability to detach. I still think you make decisions out of fear.

For example: If you want more time with you son. Fight for it. She made the decision to divorce. Whether or not she had good reason is not the point.

The point is that your relationship with your Son suffers because of it.

I can completely understand why you would fight for him.. I completely understand why you wouldn't.... it's not a question of what decision is right or wrong - it's just about backing up the decision you have made.

Here's a poor example:

My best friend is doing Crossfit and has been for 8 months. She has probably put on 15 lbs of solid muscle. She complains that she looks "bulky" but doesn't want to stop substitute Crossfit for exercises that lean her out.. because she doesn't like them as much. It's more difficult.

So I told her - she doesn't get to complain about the consequences if she doesn't want to change her actions.

You are a changed man and have the ability to change the dynamic of your relationship. But YOU must do the work. And that's not always validating and understanding....

... some times that's in the form of giving space, allowing consequences to happen, or holding people accountable for their actions.

Sometimes... it's just plain tough love.

Loving someone doesn't always bring you closer to that person. Still - that doesn't make it the wrong decision.

And if you are not ready to ask yourself if you are loving your wife in the best way possible now.... that it is completely okay....

... but then you don't get complain about it either. You don't get to be frustrated with HER... because YOU won't change the dynamic.

I'm sorry for all the 2x4s but there is growth here if you can get off your hamsterwheel of fear and look at it.

What does good communication to you look like? What does a life with your Son look like?

How does Crimson stop walking on eggshells?

[Crimson]

I got it all, GM - thanks.

You know, a few people have told me that she seems to be lacking in terms of emotional maturity. She often referenced this "flow" that she thought we should have where everything just kinda worked and we totally "got" each others moves. Maybe I'm crazy, but I think that if that is even attainable it requires a lot of time to get there. More realistically I think that individuals are always changing so relationships are always changing too. There is no finished state where the other person fully "gets" the other. That, to me, is part of the challenge of being together. That is part of the work.

I intend to go pretty dark during her time away. I have no plans of reaching out to her at this point. I'm hoping she can just use the time to reflect a d think as you said. Her father hates me and thinks I'm not "right" for her and that all my attempts to save our marriage/family were about me not wanting to pay her. That I care only about money. He will be glad she moved out and away from me. Just a guess there, but I feel pretty confident on that one. Her mom and I remain pretty close - not that I expect support there but at least I won't get trashed.

To this day I am still mystified about his notion of "feelings". Honestly, what does that mean?? We had fallen back into being intimate. Affectionate. I would hug her out of the blue and tell her how beautiful she is. I just don't get it. How can a woman be intimate with someone she has no feelings for? Hell, men do it all the time - I just thought it was different for women.

She said yesterday that she couldn't yet say "I love you" to me or be as affectionate. But doesn't that come with time and the reestablishment of trust and a sense of safety? After all we've been through is it reasonable to expect that to come flooding back?

Hell, seems like I'm asking the same questions I did 8 months ago! One step forward......

Crimson

[Accuray]

my feelings aren't where I had wanted them to be by now

When you got married, she felt in love with you. When she divorced you, she did not. I guess that *proves* feelings can change with time right?

The tough thing is that you *cannot* force her to want this, and she cannot force herself to want it either.

She can academically choose to stay, but she can't force herself to feel.

MWD has proposed that feelings can follow actions -- that if you act nice to someone you will feel good about them. I'm sure that there is truth in that, but I don't know how far it goes, or how many prior hurts it can overcome, or for how long.

The feedback I can offer is on this dynamic: W says she's not "feeling it", has doubts, wants to leave. Crimson argues with her and tries to convince her that staying is the right thing, more time is needed, etc. W leaves anyway.

How do you change that dynamic? You need to care less. "Okay W, do what you need to do and let me know how it works out."

This is a type of "fitness test" IMO, where she's pushing you because she wants you to push back. Pushing back in this case is dropping the rope.

I don't think you've talked about an OM situation, but this reads like OM stuff to me. The unrealistic expectations about "how she should feel" is often a comparison to affair excitement that you cannot and will never deliver since you're a known quantity with history.

As others have said Crimson, this is her journey. If she heads to the door, open it for her and wish her well, don't stand in front of it and try to convince her otherwise. Then, think really hard about it next time she wants to come back.

Accuray

[25yearsmlc]

Crimson,

this is not a 2 x 4, but it's going to be hard to hear. So please, get ready...I've been here from just about the beginning if I recall correctly. Calling you on things and then thinking you'd shrink away from the mirror, but you proved me wrong and happily so. You "awakened" here, for real.

You are a success story here. Regardless of your w's present choices or future ones, I know this to be true.

I have him now and will keep him for a bit still. We went swimming and just spent quality time together.

When she is in Iowa I have no plans of reaching out to her at all. I just will keep to myself and respond if she mentions S.

She DID say she would go see a counselor. I hope that is helpful.


MAYBE

she's on her way to saying she tried "and tried again!" but alas it "just didn't FEEL all good, fast enough"...and maybe her family will snap her out of it, or support her with the "if that's how you FEEL, you gotta do whatever..." blather.

Though I don't think the c will help, since she appears to be half way out the door anyhow, and maybe for good, I don't see that it will hurt.

If she goes to a C, at least once you must meet the c. Ask if they are "solution based" but mainly, please, make sure you tell the C, (even if w is not there)

talk about real changes you have made so the C can distinguish you from the 90% of couples who see him only wanting the other to change...

heck, print out a few of our notes if you can do it without your w knowing, or freaking.

Fact is, YOU are where YOU need to be, or close to it, and she is not.

Frankly, I find some of her comments like things I'd say in high school.

Enough already.

You think 31 years of marriage to me has been ALL fun and games? (Well, probably... ) But what of the others? What are the normal but happy couples long term thinking?

In my m, Let's forget my h's MLC, & just think of what I felt were good years.

They included his unrelentingly long hours and even in the good times and vacations...neither of us was always in a good mood and there were weeks I studied for a bar exam, YEARS he studied for med school and his residency and we had babies interrupting our sleep too.

Gabbysmom, hey, our first child took 45+ min to put to bed until I joined the Army (he was 15 months then?) and h had him 5 days a week while I was in training for 4 months.

I don't know if I want to know how, but somehow h "trained" him. Then took 15 min to go to sleep and man, MY life improved, as did H's...SLEEP...yay...sex that can be done AND above a whisper....YAY...

Anyhow, back to my point

sometimes h had stinky breath (or MOI??) or he needed a shower after a long day or work out but would fall asleep if "allowed to", and sometimes I just gave birth (leave that alone for now)...point being

you can "fake it til you make it" when it comes to sparks...and you get there.

Miraculously, over time, as years & troubles and triumphs bond you-
sparks take on deeper meaning and seem shinier.

You begin to realize that you might feel a different kind of spark for your spouse, like when your daughter walks to the podium to get her college degree, "with honors", you beam with pride and JOY,

or your son wins a state championship in wrestling, and you recall the defeats that led to the victories that got him there and you feel parental JOY and love and pride and you bond,

or your child gets married...IMAGINE the sparks!

Those are proud PARENTAL moments, best shared with the ONE person who 'gets it" as much as you do. In my eyes, these are "romantic sparks moments".

SIDENOTE
those feelings can come from bad experiences too...

Our older d lost her long time college roomate this past weekend, when a pick up truck, towing two (2!) cars, had the back one unhinge. The back car was a jeep, which careened across the median, driverless, and smashed head on into a car full of 24 y'o women in the prime of their lives.

(The method of death matters only in its' utter randomness, which is what is so terrifying. Grace, her now passed on friend, did nothing "Wrong". So what if she graduated with honors from college? So what if she spoke 4 languages, 3 well, and Learned to speak fluent Chinese? So what if she was headed to law school, and so what if she was voted "most optimistic"? It can happen to any of us. Life is so fragile and it's not very long).

My heart breaks for my d's loss, her friend's lost years, and for her mother, a friend of mine, who faces an unspeakable grief. Our d is devastated and in shock....

BUT we all pulled together as a family. My h answered our d's medical questions about her bff's suffering in the final seconds, "what did she feel or know" and many "what if?" questions.
[b]
At that moment, I admired his calm, accurate answers with a coating of compassion laid on top...I LOVED HIM in that moment,
[/b]
and later on that night when he obnoxiously hogged the remote control, I internally rolled my eyes and thought he was a jerk. In one night, yep...

This^^ is just life. You choose the loving parts, keep the eye rolling to yourself and move along...

BTW

Why on earth did your wife TAKE those things if she was leaving anyhow two days later?

What point was she making?

More important, what do YOU DO NOW? I have some ideas...

I do agree with you GM, I think a lot of this is her "stuff".


uh, For the record, ALL of this ^^ is her crap and this is obvious. The only piece you play in it, is how to react. And that will be your task.

But of course this is her crap. You did nothing. She didn't feel "X" and so she left...Good grief.

Get her some libido pills and see if that works. (I'm only half kidding...I think).


She sees and acknowledges the work that I have done and the changes I have made. Has said it numerous times. In fact, she has been very flattering on all fronts from my changes to my appearance, to how I am as a father.


BUT ALL THAT^^ MAKES NO DIFFERENCE IN HER "FEELINGS"??

Well that's just not mature enough. What about your son, and being a great dad?

90% of women stay with men who offer a lot less than you do, BECAUSE they are good dads. Its' like she's saying "I know you're a great guy and all, but Jimmy is just lots cuter. and me makes me swoon more..."

So go Buy a leather jacket, start smoking cigarettes, & ride a motorcycle and start "just hanging'" with other women.

You know, B/C you "need the sparks, baby"...


She just fell back into the whole "my feelings aren't where I had wanted them to be by now" discussion. How do I respond to that? I mean, I want to say that with where we are feelings are a CHOICE.

To love someone is clearly at least partly a choice. No one debates that much.

So, why didn't you say it?

If you are so terrified of standing your ground on anything, you will not lead.

God knows she cannot lead you as a couple. So, you'll both be wandering around until she tires of being "in charge but not 'knowing all the answers'", b/c she is NOT in charge of her feelings or thoughts.

She just seems to bolt when her confusion mounts and you seem to expect adult behavior of her.

IMO YOU NEED TO LEAD...not "pressure", LEAD.

There's a difference. IMO, you MUST let her fear losing you with much more of this nonsense. OF course she moved in too soon. That's obvious and no offense but I feel like that was expressed. I don't know why you chose to go forward unless you thought the logistics made sense, but they are rarely good enough reasons for rushing a recon.

Rushing reconciliations can end them for good. I can't see how slowing them down can hurt. I don't mean endless stalling, but slowing down.

Where were the new tools you BOTH got so that mistakes would not be repeated?

How would things be different if you did not have new tools? You did not both "change" that much, evidently...I mean, YOU did...but

So...she didn't get any new tools, or not articulable ones...and you still agreed to have her move in...My dear friend Crimson... WHY? What were YOU thinking?

IF she is to treat you this way much longer, isn't losing you a real possibility?

Better to warn her in some way soon, than hit her with a ton of bricks when it's too late. That's more or less what she did to you some years back, right?

Communicate Crimson.

YOU know how. Don't stop b/c she gets "that look" on her face, speak up. Expect an adult conversation.

Please, stop walking on egg shells.

Subconsciously, at least, people will tend to treat you as badly as they can. And she is confused, but sadly in her case, she reacts to confusion, not clarity. She acts on a "lack of" feeling, rather than a negative feeling.

Just so we know,

Have you suddenly become ugly or severely disfigured? Did you neglect to mention a new big fat "macho" beer belly? An addiction to something you forgot to mention? How about A long halitosis epidsode?

If NOT, then you are the new improved Crimson. With minor tweaking, and the evolving that only years add, isn't it pretty much HER that needs to work but HER that wants to bolt?

Seems to me there is a connection. When YOU were working on YOU, she was open. When you were looking at her to see if she'd check the mirrior, she didn't "Feel sparks">.....I am not sure I buy that. But I know one thing.

She bolted, two days before a trip away from you. That's NOT kind or loving or even normal. IT's weird. She needs help. You need to learn that maybe being treated better is not going to happen with her.

I'm NOT saying to leave or give up. I'm sayin you MUST NOT let her assume you're just going to keep taking this....the roller coaster has to be exited by you.

When she realizes that she is going to lose a great father, THE father of probably her only child, a good provider, a fun guy who is crazy about her son, a man who KNOWS & LOVES her...

b/c she's not "feelin' groovy", honest to God I can't believe she won't wake up and MAKE herself that way.

I mean no disrespect to my h when I say that I CHOOSE to love him on many days he's NOT that appealing to be around. I try to love him through it.

When his mom was dying (2 years of an unrelentingly hard time, I might add), he was HARD to love. But I loved him thru it, when he was deployed and incommunicado, for months, I did not falter.

I'm not a hero. I'm a wife and mother. I CHOSE. YOU CHOSE. She can too. But she won't if she does not have to. So you need to make sure she realizes that this IS a choice.

Begin to pull back. ACT AS IF you assume she's done and you are sad BUT accepting it as her (tragic) choice. Like SHE is mostly the loser and Crimson I swear to you, that is the God's truth.

If you two split up for good, there is simply no way she'll do as well with another man.

And my dear friend, if you choose wisely, there is no way you won't do better with another woman. Yes, I mean that. You're now officially a good catch. She's a confused woman looking for Mr goodbar or sparks or whatever.

I still want you two to work out. I do. But not at all costs...and not with this see saw she's on, dragging you around like a puppy that gets fed some days...and not fed others.

It's almost as if she has forgotten that I had been hurt as well.

She pretty much has forgotten or minimized it so much it hardly matters. Sorry.


I just don't believe that with all that we have been through that in 2.5 months the woozy butterflies show up again like we are a brand new couple. We had/have work to do...and it wasn't always easy.

I will fall back and try to focus on GAL again. I'm just soooooo confused by how fast she pulled out. Like I said, we were making plans for the summer just a few days ago. Ugh.

Crimson

This is what I think. It could change, but here it goes...

Make plans for a summer trip with you and your son, not inviting her...seriously. ASSUME "she's going to be with friends or family then...."
if she acts VERY interested, you can reluctantly agree. Mention that you like inviting people you can RELY on and she's not that person right now.

and make a plan for a GAL trip with your own peeps. It's FUN and it's FOR YOU and maybe it'll wake her up. NOt the "goal" but protecting yourself and enuring SOME fun this summer is something you ought to create and you deserve.

You deserve to be loved better, Crimson. Believe that. KNOW it. Let that belief show.