Becoming PatientMan II - Still En-Route, Post-D

[Spartan]

...and it makes me realize again how much I hurt her and that I should just STFU and leave her be. Hearing from me what she did to me probably won't facilitate anything positive for her.

I'm glad you said this because it saved me a lot of typing

Seriously, I understand you want those 2 things above but from my own experience it didn't help me to forgive. I told her how she hurt me regarding her treatment of me and the A's and she just stared at me and rather then feel like I was heard it built more resentment. Do you want to get it off your chest to make you feel better or is it because you're hoping for remorse from her? If it's to get remorse...

Your 2nd thing, may never happen and if it does will come on our W's timetables only. Even with that the biggest thing for true forgiveness is time. We can want to forgive and say it all we want but when the hurt is still so real and vivid I think it's dang near impossible to truly forgive 100%.

Maybe I never really held her accountable for her actions in my mind pre-D (well, at least pre-April when I started to feel different). And now that D is final, I'm looking back on what has transpired and accepting the behavior and choices for what they really were, and my mind if finally catching up to reality. I suppose her transgressions were forgivable offenses if she and I reconciled. As time went on I realized more and more that serious work was needed for me to accept her back (but I would still accept her), but now that M is officially/legally over, the reality is fully settling in.

2 things here to think about
Sounds like you are taking your W off the pedestal you had her on and seeing the reality. This is a good thing and will help you move on along your path. It helped me stop blaming myself and really start owning just my stuff.

Again, I think the forgiveness will happen, if you want it to, with time and not based on whether you two R'd or not. That condition of forgiving if you 2 are together or not seems like it could be a harmful way of thinking about it.


Yes it's perfectly ok to need space. It's perfectly fine to not be ok with her or to not want to be around her. The acting as if in my opinion means you're acting (or better yet actually doing) as if you are moving on with your life without her. You are taking back the power, taking back the control of your own life.

[jp787]

PM - Only one rule left to master, wow that is amazing! You really need to be proud!

Looking inside your window I see that you knuckles are white and you are still going quite fast down the hill in your roller coaster I think letting it out here is a great route until you catch up. Try hard to not make speak from emotion, especially right now, let your emotions, mind, body and everything else catch up. Then give it some more time

Nothing has changed and everything has changed and it is all a confused mess in your head.

Time is what you need to allow yourself right now.

Your in my thoughts.

[PatientMan]

Allow yourself TIME, and PATIENCE to work through these things.

That's the plan and what I'm doing. I'm just venting and thought processing here.

And hell, the future could very well be with her...

It could be, I just have trouble separating hope with expectations, and don't really want to bring any of that into it. I don't know how to hope for a future with her without feeling the body blows of a rejection filled life as that doesn't occur over time.

Many people have said that to me, the "you never know...I've heard it happen many times" thing. I think they see me in pain and say it to make me feel better. I'd almost rather not even hope at this point. I'd rather just set her to the side and move forward.

Right now, though, it hurts. And I feel like I need some space. It may not be a strategy for winning her back because it shows her I'm bothered by something, but I'd rather heal and move forward and live than to act like something I'm not and not be able to heal.

Thanks mach1. Bottling up feelings is easy/default for me. Maybe that's why I type so much out here. A chance to release all of it anonymously.

-PM

[uRworthy]

Hey PM, thought I'd stop by. See we have some mutual friends.

Here's the thing. You feel what you feel. There are no "right" or "wrong" feelings.

You do want to feel them, then when you are ready, let them wash over you because if you hold onto them, they weigh you down and sap your energy.

When we are going through all this, we are grieving the end of the relationship as we knew it. And so, you are going to go through the steps of grieving. And they dont happen in order. You go through them and then back again before the whole process is finished.

This is tough stuff, PM. But the only way to do it, is through it.

As far as forgiving your wife - the first step in that is forgiving yourself. Telling her what she did to hurt you or expecting her to say she is sorry does not serve you well. It serves no real purpose. Because even if she tells you she is sorry, it does not take away the hurt. The only one who can do that is you.

When you release the anger and hurt by forgiving, it will propel you forward.

And you need to ask yourself a few questions. How does it serve me not to forgive her? Can it hurt or harm any future relationship with her or someone else?

PM, the things that hurt you might remain a part of your life, but forgiveness can lessen its grip on you and help you focus on other, positive parts of your life. Forgiveness can even lead to feelings of understanding, empathy and compassion for your wife.

It doesn't mean that you deny your wife’s responsibility for hurting you, and it doesn't minimize or justify the wrong. You can forgive the person without excusing the act. Forgiveness brings a kind of peace that helps you go on with life. It is a commitment to a process of change.

This is all part of your journey, PM. You will get there when you do. There is nothing wrong with taking space if you need it.

Dbing should be about you becoming who you were meant to be first and foremost, and sometimes it saves relationships.

[PatientMan]

Do you want to get it off your chest to make you feel better or is it because you're hoping for remorse from her?

Both. I realize (at least) one of them isn't "good", but I'm just being honest.

Sounds like you are taking your W off the pedestal you had her on and seeing the reality. This is a good thing and will help you move on along your path. It helped me stop blaming myself and really start owning just my stuff.

I think so.

But you are right - probably a good thing for me overall.

Again, I think the forgiveness will happen, if you want it to, with time and not based on whether you two R'd or not. That condition of forgiving if you 2 are together or not seems like it could be a harmful way of thinking about it.

Maybe. I'm just trying to honestly evaluate the situation. Forgiveness isn't easy. Forgiveness for something that really hurts? Even harder. Forgiveness for something that really hurts and the person doing the hurting doesn't even acknowledge that they've done any wrong? Probably top of the list hard.

I *think* I was mentally willing to forgive her as long as she - and I'm being sarcastic here as I stop and look back at myself - wised up and came back. Then I got to where I realized that wasn't going to work (maybe 9 months ago), but I pushed it down and away. But it just resurfaced later anyway.

Thanks Spartan. You are making me think.

-PM

[PatientMan]

Looking inside your window I see that you knuckles are white and you are still going quite fast down the hill in your roller coaster I think letting it out here is a great route until you catch up. Try hard to not make speak from emotion, especially right now, let your emotions, mind, body and everything else catch up. Then give it some more time

Yeah, I'm keeping it all inside around her. I was in top form last night! (More on that later.)

And I'm not much on her roller coaster anymore, but on my own (internally) as I try to figure out how to come out of this the best way. Actually, she's much more on my roller coaster than I am on hers.

Your in my thoughts.

Thanks!

-PM

[PatientMan]

Hey PM, thought I'd stop by. See we have some mutual friends.

Here's the thing. You feel what you feel. There are no "right" or "wrong" feelings.

You do want to feel them, then when you are ready, let them wash over you because if you hold onto them, they weigh you down and sap your energy.

When we are going through all this, we are grieving the end of the relationship as we knew it. And so, you are going to go through the steps of grieving. And they dont happen in order. You go through them and then back again before the whole process is finished.

This is tough stuff, PM. But the only way to do it, is through it.

As far as forgiving your wife - the first step in that is forgiving yourself. Telling her what she did to hurt you or expecting her to say she is sorry does not serve you well. It serves no real purpose. Because even if she tells you she is sorry, it does not take away the hurt. The only one who can do that is you.

When you release the anger and hurt by forgiving, it will propel you forward.

And you need to ask yourself a few questions. How does it serve me not to forgive her? Can it hurt or harm any future relationship with her or someone else?

PM, the things that hurt you might remain a part of your life, but forgiveness can lessen its grip on you and help you focus on other, positive parts of your life. Forgiveness can even lead to feelings of understanding, empathy and compassion for your wife.

It doesn't mean that you deny your wife’s responsibility for hurting you, and it doesn't minimize or justify the wrong. You can forgive the person without excusing the act. Forgiveness brings a kind of peace that helps you go on with life. It is a commitment to a process of change.

This is all part of your journey, PM. You will get there when you do. There is nothing wrong with taking space if you need it.

Dbing should be about you becoming who you were meant to be first and foremost, and sometimes it saves relationships.

Thank you. Very well stated and all of it is great for me to think about.

-PM

[uRworthy]

You're welcome, PM.

This really is all a process and you are doing wonderfully.

I read something once that resonated with me about forgivesness.

Forgiveness is the letting go of wishing things were different.

[PatientMan]

Updates/journaling:

Friday was my birthday. I got off of work late and headed to the house. XW made dinner and had some set aside for me. She also made me a cake and the girls all had cards they had made for me. I spent most of the evening with D's upstairs watching TV and just hanging out. We laughed and had a really good time.

It was about time to go, so I headed downstairs to briefly chat with XW. I just wanted to tell her thanks for the meal, the cake, and also to ask about when we should tell the girls about the D, but it just didn't seem like the right time to talk about the latter based on my reading of her.

I went to leave and XW gave me a hug goodbye. Which prolonged. She smelled me a few times (which she has been doing more of lately - mentioning the smell of "me"). And she started crying.

We talked for a little bit...maybe 20 or 30 minutes. She is still a mess. Questioning her own decision making. Telling me that she misses me terribly. Wanting to be "okay", but not being able to get there without me. She said she doesn't know how to be okay without me, and mentioned that when I'm not joking around/being playful/being the "normal" me that she is used to, it tears her up pretty bad. She said after our phone call earlier that morning, I was very "okay...okay...okay...have a good day" and that breaks her heart and she cried all morning.

Obviously this reeks of co-dependence. My stance is that she has continually - through her actions - pushed me away. From telling me I had to leave the house, to finding out about OM, to perpetuating the notion that she is dead set on divorce (which took her 18 months to follow through with), to ACTUALLY divorcing me. What she says day to day changes with the wind, but her actions have been clear and I have been respectful of her wishes based upon those actions.

She's upset that "we" don't seem to be okay. I made a joke or two while we were talking and she commented, "See? THIS is what I'm talking about. I miss THIS...YOU."

My take is that she wants to be friends...best buds. Awesome co-parents that have both moved on and are healthy and happy. Only she isn't there, though she suspects I am.

There still aren't clear boundaries, and that's something that I'm working on creating. She wants hugs. And to snuggle for a minute. And will I crack her back? Will I just rub her back for a sec?

And I WANT to do those things. I WANT to help. I WANT to make her feel better, but if her goal is to become independent from me, if she has to "figure out how to be okay on her own," then any help I give isn't really help at all. It helps her in that moment, but it doesn't help her long term goal.

Those types of things aren't how "friends" act, though even when we were friends (pre-dating) we did act this way towards each other. But that isn't how "friends" act. What if one of us starts dating? Snuggling and back rubs would have to stop because that isn't "okay" behavior if one of us is involved with someone else. So this isn't actions within a friendly relationship that can exist perpetually.

On Sunday she was very playful and touchy, but I gave no indication of wanting to push things further. I didn't linger when she initiated contact, I was just very "nothing" to it.

So it appears that she wants to have all the things she wants from our relationship and none of the things she doesn't want. And as I pointed out to jp in his thread, it's a risk I have to take by not responding to her reaching out.

She's sad. She's lonely. She's confused. But she needs to figure herself out, and apparently I am in the way of that, so I have to get out of the way. And I realize that may push her away from me, but if that is what she NEEDS (even if she doesn't think so in the moment), then I have to do that for her.

So it's risky for me to not meet her emotional needs, but I was there for any and all of that for a very long time, and that didn't work to mend my M. It's a risk because it's very possible that she will find someone else to meet those needs, and then my services are no longer required or desired in any way. And of course I don't want that, but I don't see any other way. I have to let her figure herself out, and once she's done that see where I stand. I have to let her go through this, and she has to understand that things aren't going to be the same. She doesn't get to have all she wants and nothing she doesn't - that isn't how ANY relationship works.

So I just have to keep becoming PatientMan. Keep working on the things I am working on and let her find her way. It isn't easy, but I guess it's the way.

-PM

[Spartan]

First off, happy belated B-day. Glad you got to spend it with your D's.

Your strategy...I think is exactly what YOU need to be doing. Unless you want to be just friends with her I think you continue working on you and let her figure her stuff out on her own.

My take, if she wants to R and is truly committed to trying she knows how to convey that to you. Right now she seems confused and scared and stepping into that isn't good for you or her.

I think you're doing great and I admire your strength. God knows I've never had to deal with a W that acted like your XW is now and I hope if it happens I can stay as strong for me as you are right now.