Thanks

[PatientMan]

I had a..."different" thought process this morning. I kind of feel like I am in a season of "The Bachelorette". The show, which neither I nor W watches (but she watched a season or two years ago so I know the premise), has a few inherent flaws that make it somewhat humorous. The two main ones are

1) These people are whisked around the globe and treated like royalty as a means of courting that is totally abnormal and unrealistic for 99.9% of the population.
2) It's a game, and people inherently don't like to lose games, especially when there is competition.

I feel like I'm subjecting myself to the latter flaw, where I am so focused on winning the game that is getting W to want to work on a reconciliation that I am setting aside the fact that our R has some serious problems, from my perspective.

Based on reading other people's threads this isn't any sort of shocking development, but I realized that...you know what? I am ready and willing to work on my marriage. I still think it's the best course of action. BUT, I have a real issue with trust regarding W. I have spent the last year+ in this awful place where I don't know what she's doing, where she's doing it, with whom, who she is talking to, what she is thinking, and I've received no assurances from her as to what kind of behavior I can count on from her. I have been betrayed multiple times and trust has seriously eroded.

As I was driving into work this morning, I realized that trust is something she has to EARN back, and I recognize that isn't going to be easy for me. I don't mean to say that I'm going to hold something against her forever (or at all), I'm just being realistic. And I knew this in my head all along, but there was some sort of empowerment in this feeling this morning, as if *I* actually have some value. She's got to EARN it back...she can't just HAVE it.

I realized a long time ago, probably last summer or early fall, that if she asked me to move back home, I probably wouldn't. I don't want to confuse the children that way and wanted/still want to take things slow to ensure any chance at R is done the right way.

Now I seem to be at a point (at least TODAY ) where I feel a little past the "please take me back! Pretty PLEASE take me back!" phase. I WANT to work on this...that remains. But she has to want to do this too, and she has a good bit of work to do from my perspective, because I'm not going to be married to someone I do not or cannot trust.

I don't know if she knows this or if she thinks I may feel this way. One of my only confidants, my eldest sister, says I've been bouncing around between the three middle stages of grief for my M, and she thinks that my recent feelings of resentment might be an indicator that I'm transitioning into the final stage: acceptance.

Anyway, kind of a new perspective for me. We'll see if it lasts.

I hope you all have a great day!

[reb9597]

Totally agree in the trust department, PM. Trust has to be earned. Acceptance and forgiveness is the ultimate goal but I've been struggling with how to accept without giving a little bit of my soul and pride away. I've seen other people who can really master living in the NOW, being responsible for their own behavior and extending grace without requiring any payback. I guess we'll know when we get there.

[PatientMan]

I had an interesting weekend. W got a babysitter so we could go shopping on Friday evening, and while we were out she called to have the sitter stay longer so we could go get dinner afterwards. I didn't allow myself to look at that as anything more than just trying to enjoy some time together as friends without the girls around.

Over Saturday and Sunday I did feel like she was pulling away a little bit, but again I didn't allow myself to take anything more than maybe she was internally wrestling with what she may have viewed as a quasi-date and what message that may have sent me.

Mainly I just focused on spending time with the kids, and when I was spending time with W I tried to be attentive and caring. Earlier on in this process I may have rode the roller-coaster up and down this past weekend, but I did a fairly good job of being a steady Eddie sitting on my picnic blanket and enjoying the long weekend and extra time with my family.

(In reality, Friday night could have been anywhere in between 1)her feeling me out R-wise and 2) her just wanting some new clothes and feeling she needs to butter me up to get them. I'm not going to waste my energy speculating any of the potential explanations - it's just an exercise in futility and doesn't change anything for me.)

I *feel* like I'm finally coming around into being me no matter what. I can't say that her actions don't affect me, but I'm doing much better at realizing that while I am affected, that doesn't change who I am or who I want to be.

And with as bad as this long process has been, that is something that finally feels good.

Make today a great one!

-PM

[labug]

(In reality, Friday night could have been anywhere in between 1)her feeling me out R-wise and 2) her just wanting some new clothes and feeling she needs to butter me up to get them. I'm not going to waste my energy speculating any of the potential explanations - it's just an exercise in futility and doesn't change anything for me.)

You're right, this is crazy-making, but we all do it. The more you can tell yourself STOP and move to something else, the happier you'll be.

[PatientMan]

It dawned on me in another thread that I really need to improve my validation skillz. It's something that I'm so lacking in ability that I feel like I don't know how bad I really am at it.

Here is how AnotherStander put it:

Validation is not agreeing/ disagreeing/ explaining/ negotiating/ etc. The idea is to A) encourage the other person to share more feelings and B) let them know their feelings are valid, important and legitimate.

1) So how do I learn to validate? What kinds of questions do I ask and/or comments do I make?

Maybe a better question is: how do YOU validate?

2) More specifically (and I don't want to get too caught up in specifics because the examples could be limitless), what about when W says how she feels about her appearance? I think this is a fairly typical and volatile example.

[reb9597]

I get stuck on the same thing!

I only recently figured out that I'm not as good of a listener as I thought I was... working on that.

And the open-ended questions to draw someone out - that literally makes my mind go blank. I started a list of things to say and wrote: how do you feel about that? But can't figure out how to pull that one off without feeling like I'm a cliche shrink...

I've been trying to practice validation with my kids more and the amount of conscious effort it takes seems unnatural.

I can offer my opinion on your #2 question, it's best not to simply offer an opposing opinion of her appearance if she's feeling down. W: I'm having a bad hair day H: No your hair looks great! - not good enough. I guess that would be a time to ask "why do you think that?" but then always reassure her afterwards. But women don't like being contradicted about their insecurities.

[PatientMan]

Some posts info on validating, just to pluck them from another thread and into my own so I don't lose them.

Validating someone's feelings can only be done unconditionally. When you validate your wife's feelings you have to set aside what you believe for that moment and then some. Otherwise you're not validating.

Whether validating or showing them "they done good" you have to do it with sincerity. Otherwise it comes across as manipulation. And she's likely to spot the difference.

Why is it important to you for her to ask how you are doing? That suggests that you're a little caught up in yourself. This isn't the time to make things "about you". You need to make this about her. You have to show her that you have compassion and that you cherish her. That you place her above yourself. You have to let your actions speak for themselves. Words won't cut it with her. To her your words are simply more of the same old, same old. You need to change 'you'. And frankly, 'you' are the only one 'you' can control. You have no control over her whatsoever.

As to your comments about listening, being mysterious, unconditional love, etc., I suspect, as someone has already said, she's just pushing your buttons to validate to herself that the decision she's made to end your R was the right one. You need to avoid those interactions along with old relationship discussions. Walk away from them.

Yup... a lot of patience is required. You need to 'make time your friend' dragon.

Don't let her remarks about the boys get you down. Just "dodge" her comments and focus on changing yourself into the person she fell in love with. BUT, you have to do that not for her but for yourself. If you're happy with the person you are now then no matter how much you do it's not likely to come across as genuine. WASs intuitively know the difference between what's real and what's not. Making changes for yourself, that give you happiness, is pretty hard for her to dismiss and looks very attractive to WASs.

Scott,
Validating is what we do when we behave and respond in ways that tell the other person their feelings and thoughts are very important to us. (FYI - We can validate someone without necessarily agreeing with them.)

How can we communicate validation? Let me run down some practical approaches:

1. Good eye contact

2. Body turned toward the speaker

3. Relaxed and focused, not fidgety & impatient

4. Let them speak without interruption.

5. Avoid jumping in to correct, defend and/or explain yourself. Just listen!

6. Physcially acknowledge what they are saying (nod, lean forward) and/or verbally acknowledge (checking in with an "OK", "Uh-huh", or "yes" at appropriate times.)

7. Acknowledge their feelings ("Mary, you're really irritated that I forgot the garbage? I understand that could irritate you." "You told me you're hurt and I hear it in your voice." "You're frustrated about your job? It sounds like it frustrates you!")

8. Respond with empathy and remorse. ("I am so sorry our situation has caused so much pain for you." "I can see that I have done some things to cause much of your anger right now. I am sorry." "I am beginning to understand how important [source of her anger/pain] was to you. It was insensitive of me not to see this earlier.")

9. Asking questions in response to what was said. ("I just heard you say I made you angry. I'd like to understand, so could tell me more how I did that?" "I see you're upset and I'd really like to know what happened for you to feel this way?")

I hope this is a helpful start. In Michele's "Keeping Love Alive" series, she reviews more completely how to communicate well with each other. It would be very helpful and I'd recommend it!

I am also looking through Cadet's welcome post on the MLC board, which has a lot of info linked (and linked to links).

[PatientMan]

I have been doing really well...really since the 28th and I posted that I was feeling like I actually had "value", which was new for me. Life is still extremely hectic and demanding, but I've been able to focus better as well, especially in school.

W does NOT seem to be doing so well. In fact, according to her she's not sure if she's ever had a day as bad as yesterday. I had to fight the instinct to skip class to help out, and fight it a little harder to drive by her exit on the way home without stopping by to check on her. The rationalization hamster gets churning and I can certainly come up with good reasons, but I ignored that little guy and didn't stop.

I actually feel okay.

[AnotherStander]

2) More specifically (and I don't want to get too caught up in specifics because the examples could be limitless), what about when W says how she feels about her appearance? I think this is a fairly typical and volatile example.

Well that's a tough example, because it really depends on her state of mind and how she asks it. Sometimes women say something about their appearance because they ARE fishing for a compliment, and so they don't want validation so much as positive affirmation. IE- "This dress makes my butt look big!" "I have to disagree, that dress makes your cute little derriere look so great that I don't know if we'll ever get out of the house tonight!" This is a case where validation may backfire, if you were to say "I hear you saying you think your butt looks big, how does that make you feel?" She might actually go looking for a bat to chase you around the house with, LOL!

A better example might be if she says "My mom just passed away, and now when I look in the mirror I see the same wrinkles and age spots, I'm turning into my mother!" This would be a good time for validation, because the difference is this is coming from a place of emotional distress whereas the above example is more superficial. A good response to this might be "I can't imagine what that's like, tell me how that makes you feel." "I feel like life is slipping past me, it moves so quickly!" "Does that make you sad?" "Yes, and I feel anxious too". "How anxious do you feel, would you sat it's a little or a lot?" "I guess in the middle." "Kind of like when D16 started driving and we were constantly on pins and needles about it?" "Yes, that's a good example! When I start thinking about it I have that same sense of waiting for the other show to drop." "I'm sorry you feel that way, it sounds difficult."

Constrast that with what the typical "guy" response to that would be: "Honey, you don't look anything like your mother. Don't be silly, you look great and you've still got a lot of good years ahead of you!" This is actually the opposite of validation. This invalidates her emotions and feelings, it tells her that her feelings are wrong, that she is mistaken. Validation is seeking to understand her emotions and to let her know you take them seriously, that they are important to you.

[PatientMan]

Sometimes spouses ARE just fishing for a compliment, and sometimes spouses truly feel that way. These are very choppy waters to navigate, so I was hoping someone had some ideas. I posted this on March 1st:

She just texted me: "I feel like I am perpetually fat." Which is ridiculous because she is in the fitness industry and takes very good care of herself.

I responded with: "I am sorry you feel that way, but [W], you are a beautiful, intelligent, strong...a VERY desirable woman, and I can't be around much anymore to remind you of that as often as you deserve to hear it, so you need to stop beating yourself up with thoughts like that."

I almost wrote "silly thoughts" or "ridiculous thoughts", but didn't want to call her feelings either of those words (learned from this forum about validating feelings, though I don't know if the above is a very good job of that).

What I wrote was honest and direct, but I don't think it's very good "validating." And it isn't like I can say something like that every time or it loses it's value.

Anyone else have ideas on the spouse who ISN'T fishing for a compliment?

What about if spouse says "I miss you" or "I love you"? Reciprocating those feelings would be truthful, but I'm really in a mode where I have my feelings towards her shut down externally. I imagine the answer is "it depends", but is there a general rule like some of the other guidance given (e.g. GAL, don't pursue, etc.)?