Life, continued (22+ months)

[adinva]

GWN: Why I have trouble with feelings... It did not occur to me that one little event in my early childhood caused that. My sisters and I believe it's more our family dynamic, old New England stiff upper lip. Old-style parenting where children should be seen and not heard. A fair amount of codependence, where our behavior could MAKE our parents feel proud, sad, angry, ashamed, or happy. My sister used to feel she had to look pretty so Mom would be happy. I didn't feel that way. My other sister said she buried her feelings because she was pretty sure her feelings were irrelevant, no one was interested in her feelings. I felt like I was expected to get good grades, behave, whatever, because my parents insisted on it. It had nothing to do with me or what I wanted. So I became oppositional...I felt my power in denying my parents what they wanted, and I pushed the envelope. I felt power in getting average grades and acing tests and getting my picture for national merit but skipping class and forging passes. I felt power in going to a good college and partying, power in leaving the country, hitchhiking and sleeping in train stations and falling in love with boys and buying my own car and making my own way. I felt power in not asking for help from anyone and being independent of my parents (somewhat). They objected to my relationship with H, first because they guessed incorrectly at his religious background and then because they didn't like his ethnic/racial background and then because they thought he should "poop or get off the pot" isn't that nice? Maybe they said fish or cut bait. Anyway I fought them tooth and nail over my ability to make my own decisions and I felt power in that. And we showed them for a pretty long time. He was the favorite son in law, through attrition, for a while. I was happy with him, we had adorable kids, he provided a great life. I really cannot say that being molested impacted me nearly as much as being emotionally distant from my parents did.

I suppose that is what I've been trying to undo all along through my empathy for my boys. I think, even if I haven't been a perfect mom, I've been really really good at nurturing emotionally competent boys.

[JuneReN]

Wow. You really are amazing. Listen, my two cents:

Everyday we get conflicting opinions, especially those of us who DB, right? I mean, most of our friends don't understand why we wait, why we forgive and how we deal. But we do what we do because we have decided to walk our own paths. You will decide what to do and what to say and how to deal with all H's behaviours and interactions between you and sons. And you will do what is right for you and the babies. What you feel is right. You already are walking that path and you are more remarkable for taking the time to look at all sides of the insanely complex shape of this life.

I really admire your strength and clarity right now. I don't know if you realize how it shines through, even when you are working towards things, the path is pretty clear.

Ruby

[adinva]

Wow, thanks Ruby. I really do believe I do try to take the time to look at all the sides. There is so little that looks black and white to me anymore, it's all confusing.

I think it's kind of funny that the path I struggle so much to find and stay on is just simply laid out by my WAH. I didn't choose it and wasn't about to, and fight it like crazy, and find myself on it anyway.

I'm feeling these past couple of days though, like I'm packing up the broom and not so much interested in sweeping and keeping that road home paved.

I look at the course I've taken, and the advice that goes out to newbies, and I think I've really not done a very good job of DBing. I worked really hard at learning to stop reacting, stop being passive aggressive, contain my reality and express myself in moderation, understand different viewpoints and learn empathy for my H. I am still practically the exact same person at the stuff that really bothered him, saying I'm going to the gym and still being on the internet 2 hours later is still par for the course, I still get to the dog poop in the yard only about every two or three weeks and find excuses like it's winter or there's snow or I did it last week and I'm busy. I'm still not great at making the kids do chores. I'm not really that different. I wear makeup a lot more regularly, but I still don't like to dress up or fuss with my hair. I work out a lot more in my imagination than in reality. I'm just not a woman only a fool would leave, in my husband's book. I don't even really feel like being that, to him. I'm happier, I'm more real, I work harder at relationships I want to work harder at, I'm not willing to accept scraps of attention and affection, I'm pretty cool with having my house and kids and dogs and no H. I never even tried to withdraw from H and measure the results, or pursue a little and see how he'd respond, or try touch (ok once) or make lots of eye contact and look interested in him. I aced detaching and giving space and not pursuing and didn't find anything that would draw him closer. Now I just feel like eventually dotting the i's and closing the book on this marriage, but not in a hurry to do that either.

If watching my parents get old and sick has done anything it's taught me that it's wrong to wait for some perfect set-up in order to be happy. It's not going to happen, or some other hurdle will come along, or what you thought would doesn't create happiness. Why wait. If I wait until my mom's not being treated for cancer or my marriage is better or my kids behave or work is easy, I'll be waiting too long. I used to think I was happy if I just ignored the bad, but now that I'm muscling right through the bad stuff I find there's happiness just available in it, like the mica bits in a sidewalk, and you have to look carefully.

[labug]

Ad, I remember quite a while ago bringing up your H's actions as abusive and I think your response was very similar then:

>I really think if I stood up in public and called my H abusive he would be outraged and appalled.<

Most abusers would do the same. I don't think an abuser is a good judge of their own actions.

I was abused as a child and it's a difficult thing to get over. I still can't understand why very nice people who saw what was happening didn't step in and say "Stop, this is way over the top."

A confounding fact of abuse is that 2 people can receive the same abusive treatment and be affected in very different ways. The problem is we can't preemptively pick those people who will be most damaged and get them out of harms way.

So we need to protect all those who can't protect themselves.

I know this is tough stuff, I wish you and your boys the best.

[adinva]

It might even be possible that H won't put words to it but doesn't feel right about how he is with me and the kids and has removed himself from the equation FOR us. It would be as good a guess as any if I hadn't been accusing him all this time of lacking empathy.

I don't know, Bug. If H is abusive then I shouldn't allow the kids to be with him, should I? But don't they need their dad? And if I've been there all along and am not quite sure what I've observed, how could a judge possibly decide? And I can't even imagine trying to get along with H after telling all this stuff to prevent him seeing his boys.

I'm really glad to have my IC to bring these worries to and get advice. She's been really encouraging that I can turn this around for my boys by being a different example, by giving them words and empowering them to express themselves.

I see lots of dads here getting squeezed out of their kids' lives at least partially, and saying they've been really awesome dads. I think my H would say he's been a really awesome dad.

My dad now is a really awesome dad. yeah they used corporal punishment and somehow didn't perceive what we really needed from them. But my dad taught me all about integrity, business, ethics, we share a lot of interests in spy novels coffee and potato chips, he's a really really good guy. Just had some faults as a parent of minor children, and not as many faults as some.

I cannot control my H. I cannot make him be a way that he is not, I can't make him believe he's abusive or harmful, and I can't make him change how he interacts with the kids. I can't fix their relationship. I can't tell him how to be a better dad. I can control how I will be treated by him, by speaking up and by enforcing my boundaries. I can teach my kids to do the same. But I can't see that how he is is so bad that I need to remove him from their lives. I have told him what I think is right and he just doesn't agree. I have asked for a referee and he doesn't think it's necessary and won't find the time. I did get him to go to an IC session with the kids, but he thought it was about getting them to be respectful of each other, didn't know it was about him.

I do often wish our marriage had fallen apart 10 years ago. Oh well. I have to go forward from here.

[labug]

Who said remove him from their lives? He can make different choices but he doesn't have to as long as everyone turns a blind eye.

I need to not post here anymore because this is too charged for me still. I lose all objectivity.

[adinva]

OK sorry. Like I said, I have trouble figuring out where on the spectrum is appropriate. I haven't ever turned a blind eye, I've said, and repeated, and argued, and brought in counselors, and coached the kids, and the friction over this issue is one of the top reasons my marriage is ending. There's no blind eye, I don't think. He just doesn't agree. I really value your opinion.

[adinva]

I don't think I can/should keep the kids from their dad, or suggest that their dad is bad. We've been working this year on empowerment and basic respect, and the need sometimes to ask to be treated more respectfully or walk away. I think the kids need to be coached when and how to speak up for themselves, since they're just a few years away from being adults and deciding for themselves what their relationship with their dad is going to look like. At 22 my H decided never to see or speak to his dad again.

[labug]

My blind eye comment was a cheap shot, I do lose my objectivity. I apologize.

[Accuray]

I don't know, if he's grabbing his 15 year old in the crotch and squeezing, and calling his 12 year old "stupid" and "dumbass", I would say that's "bad"