So, today I had occasion to try to recap wth happened to my marriage, and I thought I'd post it here. I don't always completely capture my thoughts, some bits and pieces that turn out to be relevant don't make it in, and some words or phrases are misfires, not to mention that my thoughts and emotions change. It's kind of like trying to grab goldfish from a tank.
I thought I was all over the place closer to the beginning of my sitch, and I knew I might eventually settle closer toward some kind of statement that more accurately captured what I thought happened. Here's what I thought happened as of earlier today fwiw (with a little more finetuning since I'm not typing it with my thumb):
I don't know what his beef is really. And he won't give a clue.
He became very secretive after he got work with secret clearance and got interested in guns and all that good guys and bad guys stuff. (This was maybe two years prebomb, and I was alarmed at how he would shut down any questions with "I can't tell you that." He almost seemed to enjoy doing that. I soul searched and decided that I would be the best top secret wife I could and support him and try not to be curious or alarmed.) Now looking back, I think he went from a little OCD (high anxiety over anything not exactly according to his rules or his way) to a little over the edge, like insane. I had to disguise him in our pinewood derby photo for the Cub Scout newsletter to avoid his being associated with our kids in a photo. I went along with this, but it added to unhappiness that was already there.
For my part I think that I was deeply disappointed in my marriage and would not accept that that was okay so I put a happy face on it and made the best of it. I did not know how to accept and give deeply felt love, and so his take-the-good-with-the-bad attitude and his not-very-nice terms of endearment, and his brusque frat boy treatment when I wanted romantic sexy treatment, I accepted as my lot but I did not like it. My fault was not being able to say what I needed, or know what I needed, or wonder how one might learn to do that or why. My fault was thinking that marriage was forever even if it was lousy so don't bother labeling it at all.
And my inability to be enthusiastically loving to him helped increase his withdrawal and the divide became worse and worse. I can clearly recall a handful of events that he responded to with such frozen calm that I felt we'd past a point of no return - one was the night my "love tank" was so low I couldn't bring myself to do more than go through the motions...on his birthday. He was p!ssed but said FINE don't bother, and was a little colder ever since. There were other times like that and I could look back and see they permanently set us back each time. For example I objected to Maxim in the bathroom - my bathroom - and tried to be accommodating and understanding until the boys got old enough to start stealing it from there. I objected again and got FINE. I won't get it anymore. And then the temperature turned down just a little more, irreversibly.
So I didn't behave super well either. I was quick to bicker, quick to challenge his tone and temper, quick to take offense at what and how he said things to me. We became the bickersons. I became lazy, developed an internet habit, very forgetful around the house, passive aggressive. If you can imagine a conversation between us the captions would have been "Well oh yeah? FINE. If you're going to be that way then I'm going to be MORE this way."
I saw this getting worse and worse and I just did not know anything other than tolerate, explain, understand, tolerate. I considered myself a fairly happily married woman and last I heard from him he said he was a happily married man. No point looking deeper.
There were signs of cheating, around 2002 or so, a very close touchy friendship, latenight chatty calls (he never liked talking on the phone to me and often hung up before I was finished talking, so finding him on the phone while folding laundry, chatting away, was alarming.), and more, odd behavior around trips, total drop-off of interest in sex. I just did not know what to do, but we married for life, so put a happy face on it.
And then there are elements of his ways with the kids that are really literally horrible and damaging (ok that is my opinion) and my extreme the other way drove another wedge. He cited to his mom that one of his reasons for leaving was "he didn't like the way I had raised the kids." And looking back this seems unfair, except until you notice that we really didn't and don't seem to be able to work through something - anything - with a common goal, to appreciate what each other brings to the table and negotiate compromise or real agreement. In hindsight it seems to have been either my way or his way, there was no our way. And he tended to back down so I thought I had agreement when he thought I was overruling him and getting my way. So if you see it that way, I did raise the kids and not the way he wanted.
In our entire adult lives together I've never seen him change his mind go back on a decision sincerely apologize (to me or any peer; I ONCE this year heard him apologize to our S12 for calling him a demeaning name and that was a first) or admit an error. He has always been praised for being extremely smart, having extraordinary common sense, knowing things "he knows nothing about," generally just being very very RIGHT all the time. I personally really admired that, and I have heard his friends admire it too. I think being right is integral to his self-identity.
Now, I think he's depressed. He's acted depressed since maybe a whole year before BD, and the almost two years since then. A doctor told him he's not, and he's sticking with that story. But he spent all day in bed after work through most of my kids' middle school time. Maybe he got depressed because of our sitch, because I didn't know how not to aggravate him, because he interpreted our challenges in a way that made him feel less of a man. Maybe depression aggravated our sitch instead. Maybe it's a MLC. Maybe we're just not compatible people. I don't really know.
Because of how he is being, I think no matter what I do it would take a miracle way beyond my control - IN ADDITION TO a clear sense that being with me would be different - for him to change his mind about our marriage.
I have a few reasons to believe he's been cheating for a couple years possibly. My IC is as sweet and kind as I could imagine and she thinks he is a sociopath. He has no empathy, she says, he literally cannot feel for another person.
I'm just trying to do the next best thing every day. DB really helped; i would have stayed in a rotten marriage if it meant winning at this. But over time here that changed. If H could learn to connect emotionally, and wanted to, I would see hope for a future for us, but I wont spend my kids' high school years in a futile waiting game. I will show them when its time to fold your cards and go on, with love, regret, and hopefully compassion.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
I think you said your story just fine. Very clear. Humbling, sad, and strong.
And in a way, hopeful.
((( )))
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
do you have a timeline in mind, or maybe an internal one?
It's not a suggestion, just a question.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Yeah, I do. I'm struggling to find the time to respond to the separation agreement he gave me in November. I have to tell him, 1. I want to buy his share of the house 2. I will need spousal support and for more than the five years he said he'd not pay anything after 3. Child support is not optional 4. I think he should contribute toward sport and other special child expenses until age 18 as well as college or trade school after that. 5. We need to agree on the date of our separation. He put it 5/1/11, and I could argue it was 12/9/12. Whenever it was, we can't be legally divorced until a year after that.
The rest is pretty much agreeable but those are big areas we're apart on.
Anyway, once that is signed I'll suggest that he should go ahead and file for divorce immediately. It isn't healthy for him to be hanging out in limbo with this hanging over his head; he's clearly concerned about money and he has no place to live. I'm in my home with my dog and kids; my life has changed a lot less than his has so far. It isn't healthy for me to be sitting here hoping we might get back together. We should finish this and move on with our lives.
I would prefer it be him because I did not choose this and didn't want it, and I don't want the record to make it look like I did. But if he doesn't want to file and doesn't want to work on the marriage either, then I'll go ahead and do it.
Based on that, not knowing how the court system might delay it, I guess I'll be divorced sometime in the next 3 to 9 months.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
Yeah, I do. I'm struggling to find the time to respond to the separation agreement he gave me in November. I have to tell him, 1. I want to buy his share of the house ^^can you financially do this?
2. I will need spousal support and for more than the five years he said he'd not pay anything after well the Judge might not agree with your h...you know, b/c of the law and all.... I assume there is a disparity in income levels, right? They'll factor that in. Your L can give you a good idea of expected numbers. 3. Child support is not optional absolutely correct^^. Surely he knows that. Right?
4. I think he should contribute toward sport and other special child expenses until age 18 as well as college or trade school after that. your youngest has a learning disability, correct? So that's very doable for extras...I think the college or trade school issues will be negotiable. That does not mean you lose, but that it's negotiable. It's not unusual for each parent to contribute a third and the child to pay/borrow a third.
IF there is a discrepancy in incomes (so he earns noticeably more than you do) this won't be complex. He can pretend it is, but it's not. Virginia is an equitable division state & you have a special needs child, plus an athlete who might SAVE you college money by playing...
at least document the costs of his sports/transportation, etc. I know our d15's basketball playing is an EASY $2k a year (yeah, two thousand)...thank God she's not playing hockey.
5. We need to agree on the date of our separation. He put it 5/1/11, and I could argue it was 12/9/12. Whenever it was, we can't be legally divorced until a year after that. I assume there's an advantage to you, to making it later, correct? Is it also more accurate? The rest is pretty much agreeable but those are big areas we're apart on.
if he believes child support is optional, Ad, that's a pretty darn big area to not agree on. In cases like that, where the law is clearly with you, I think him seeing a lawyer will do you both a world of good. It's called reality therapy.
Anyway, once that is signed I'll suggest that he should go ahead and file for divorce immediately. It isn't healthy for him to be hanging out in limbo with this hanging over his head; he's clearly concerned about money and he has no place to live. I'm in my home with my dog and kids; my life has changed a lot less than his has so far. It isn't healthy for me to be sitting here hoping we might get back together. We should finish this and move on with our lives. well, I mostly care about the highlighted areas^^ but I believe you're sincerely concerned for his well being with your comments. I get it. You're at that place in the road, where you are ready to cross over. No judgement here.
You have the right to be happy and the right to move forward. No more stuckville, w/population, "you".
So then the timeline is...what?
I would prefer it be him because I did not choose this and didn't want it, and I don't want the record to make it look like I did. But if he doesn't want to file and doesn't want to work on the marriage either, then I'll go ahead and do it.
Based on that, not knowing how the court system might delay it, I guess I'll be divorced sometime in the next 3 to 9 months.
well it's all very sad. As for "the record"...hmmm. Think about it. Ad, if "the record" said you hit him, or cheated on him, I could see caring.
But you know what? No one will see the "record" of when someone filed for something...or why. AND YOU know the truth. Your sons know the truth and at some level, maybe, even your h knows. AND if he does not know the truth by now, he never will and nothing the record says will change that. Clearly, HE has his own record. I just love that you know limbo will end.
Within the constraints that circumstances have imposed on you, you are at least exercising choice. Good for you, (but yes it still sukks.)
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
^^good point...and the longer the m, the more "long term" the m is. Which helps you. Plus it's true anyhow, right?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Yes, we passed our 19th anniversary while he was still living in our house, doing our laundry, eating our meals, and sleeping in our bed. Our 20th anniversary will be next November. In May 2011 I didn't even know we weren't happily married so that's just plain not going to be the date. December 2012 is when he moved out, we told our kids, and began to tell neighbors/parents and act like we were separated.
His proposal I believe assumed that I financially couldn't afford to buy the house yet (and also protected his interest in the future increased value of it). So it was that he pay the mortgage and continue owning half of the house. In his math the mortgage is approximately equal to child support plus about $300/month, so he'd pay it for five years and then we'd sell the house and split it in half. S12 will be about 18 then, so according to this plan, he contributes financially both child support and spousal, until the youngest is 18, and then cashes out and is done.
On principle, I do not want to co-own a house with my X. I have a letter of approval for a loan in the necessary amount to buy him out. I will be able to afford the mortgage and our other family expenses IF I have the $1700/mo child support dictated by the charts in Virginia PLUS a little bit more. Something like about $350/mo will enable me to pay the bills and scrape by, not starve but definitely not live at the level we've been living at.
My initial thinking is that typically I could expect support for 10 years, not 5, due to the length of our marriage. I'd like to take that second half of potential spousal support and reduce it from his equity so he can have his wish of being done in 5 years.
When I'm overwhelmed I procrastinate. I'm getting a lot of other stuff done, so don't think I'm spending my days hiding in bed under the covers, but you can see with this separation agreement that I'm frozen in fear. Have to block some time to formulate my response to his proposal.
Perhaps you can help me with this: Is it better to come back to him with a completely fleshed out counterproposal with numbers plugged in? Or is it better to tell him to go back to the drawing board removing the assumption that we'll co-own the house, and be more realistic about the spousal support number? And - at what point do I tell him the house needs to be sold, whether it be to him, to me, or to a buyer, but I prefer it be to me? What if he says no to me buying it? If he says yes, should I get the refi started now or wait till the separation agreement is agreed to and signed?
The fact of the matter is, our mortgage is less than a 2BR apt in our school district. I will afford it because I have no better alternatives. So it may not be jumping the gun to get the process started no matter how our separation agreement pans out. I don't know.
Regarding sports and college, in an exploratory conversation with H I learned his current position is that child support to age 18 is intended to cover anything they might need, and if I want them to have more it's up to me to figure out how to pay it out of the state mandated child support. Regarding college he sees the child declaring emancipation as a viable alternative, and also not going to college as a viable alternative. I like the 1/3-1/3-1/3 idea; is that written into separation agreements or negotiated when the time comes? I'm leery of waiting until the time comes because I'll be ancient history then; he's sort of trying to get along now and may have no incentive to THEN.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
