Life, One Day at a Time (22 months)

[RockJC]

I have expressed this to my W. I got a deer in the headlights look and a "that makes no sense" response. Mind you, my W is very intelligent and can readily understand this concept. She rejects it because it conflicts with her current desires.

She needs to justify her behavior and must take an emotional view of love. With that view, she is able to become a victim of fate rather than a person making a moral choice. What else can she do, she is not "In Love" and she is powerless to change this reality. She is "In love" with the OM, how can she deny these feelings? How do her friends or family argue with what she feels?

AD - I see your husband making the same justifications. I can understand how a person would willingly deceive themselves. But, in the end, they are lying to themselves. We live in a relativist culture where we tend to view all perspectives as equally valid. They are not. The simple fact that your H believes something doesn’t make it true.

You said:

“Or, at least in the case of my husband, I don't think it's that he has low morals or a looser hold on the commitment of marriage, or is too lazy to work on the marriage. I don't think he's choosing an easy route. I think he really believes love can just go away, and attraction can just be forever gone, even if he didn't believe that before he believes it now because he feels it and is living it.”

He does not have low morals or is lazy. He is just wrong. He feels it and lives it, because it is a self fulfilling prophesy. Once he chooses not to love, or accept your love, it is not surprising that he doesn’t feel love.

You can validate his feelings without accepting the lie. In my mind, this issue is “Black and White”. Unfortunately, everything I read says that this is something your H needs to learn on his own. I wish there was a pill.

[PatientMan]

//Mature people base a marriage on unconditional love.

I don't mean to quibble with this sentiment.^^^. But I'm not sure what it means. People use it differently.//

For me, it means viewing "Love" as a verb, and not an adjective. I choose to Love vs I feel Love. Once you view love as a verb that you choose, then you must decide when to choose it. Conditional love says that I will choose to love in reciprocation for being loved by you. Unconditional love syas that I will choose to love regardless of how I am being treated by you.

I think AD is giving us an excellent example of unconditional love. Her husband is emotionally abusing her. He is insulting her by shopping at a sex shop. He is rejecting her by leaving the marriage. And yet AD is choosing to continue to love her husband. This is how mature people who understand love behave. The decision to love was made the day she took her vows.

Immature Love = I feel love for you
Conditional Love = I love you because you love me
Unconditional Love = I Love you because I am a person who Loves.

I wrote this sentiment to my W last year in a letter (back when I was chasing) after the 3rd BD (the discovery that W & OM were communicating again, news to OM's W and me):

...Yes, this past week has been extremely difficult for me. I have been scraping the bottom of the emotional barrel. But it reinforced some things for me as well. I LOVE YOU, [W]. Completely. Unconditionally. And that means, by definition, I love you without condition. In this case that means you don't have to love me back. If I loved you only if you loved me too...well, that's easy. Anybody can do that. You loved me for a very long time when I wasn't loving you like I should and treating you like I should and respecting you and us like I should have and I refuse to do that anymore...look, I'm not going to go over what I'm going to do for the rest of my life again. We did that on Friday. You know where I stand and what I promise to you and our family. You loved me for longer than anyone else would have ever put up with. And this isn't me feeling like I owe you something and I'm trying to pay you back for that, it's me just loving you. That's it...

I'm sure a lot of us have said very similar things.

Wow, that was 10 months ago...things haven't changed much in that department.

Keep at it adinva! I can't say what you are doing will give you the result you desire, but doing what is "right" will always allow to live with yourself. Living a life to your own moral standards, even if they aren't shared by the people most important to who those morals apply to, is honorable and faithful. Good job.

[adinva]

Well, get working on that pill because there are 253,687 people on these forums alone who would buy it from you. I wish too.

I guess we're not going to change each other's beliefs much, but I have felt that a humble approach is much more effective, internally and externally, than a projected self-righteousness. You follow Jesus and I do too, so consider imagining him shouting to anyone who would listen, I'M RIGHT! I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG! WHY CAN'T YOU SEE IT! YOU'RE SELFISH AND YOU'RE NOT LOVING CORRECTLY! Would you be reading about it in a book this many years later?

Outrage just doesn't work in something like this.

[adinva]

25, I respect your input so much. I am right on the edge of reefer madness and well aware of it. My only saving grace is that I have been literally the coolest most patient and respectful mom ever up until now so it's a real one-off and hopefully shocking.

There are a couple of parents who think I'm a little nuts, and some who think taking S15 in for this assessment is awesome.

I'm not sure it's the right thing to do, myself, but I'm willing to be upfront about that. We're experiencing it together and we'll learn and adjust as needed I guess. I was hoping it would be a recovered junkie who could tell him in ways he would understand why and how to cool it with this stuff. I am still telling myself there's no way I'm signing him up for a treatment program that meets two nights a week. I'm still tempted by denial.

But the fact is, he's doing it in our house, he's doing it under my nose, he's been caught one two three times now, he's storing the stuff in his hiding place supposedly for friends who couldn't take it home. He's just about begging me to care and do something. And when he defied my consequences and sneaked out I felt like I needed to respond with something really big.

I have been told this is completely confidential, it won't be reported to the school, team, police, or anyone. I might not submit it for insurance reimbursement and just cough up the $175, because I still fear that "permanent record" idea they used to hold over our heads when I was a kid.

I have been tempted to call them up ahead of time and say, by the way, this is what I want him to get out of this meeting, and this is what I want you to cover. I decided not to because I'm so wanting to smooth this over for S15 and help it be easy for him.

BTW I finally talked to the mom who hosted him the night he snuck out. I didn't mention to her that she supposedly picked him up, and she didn't mention it to me. But I told her I don't know what any individual of these boys is doing, I can only tell her that among the group, it is going on. And she looked me in the eye, and said, I'm so glad my B__ is so stubborn. Boy if he doesn't like the taste of something or doesn't want to do something he is NOT going to do it. I don't have to worry about him, I know he's not into that stuff. I said, "well that's nice. I asked my S if he liked the taste of it and he said he did. He also liked how it made him feel. And he and his friend lied about the chewing tobacco being someone else's for a long time before they admitted to doing it. I guess sometimes they might act more innocent than they are." I'm not going to convince her.

Oh yeah she said they do the "bro showers" at her house too and she says it's definitely not to smoke pot. I asked if she didn't think it was a little weird that homophobic adolescent male athletes are taking showers for extended periods in our upstairs bathrooms? Naaahhhh, she's pretty sure it's fine.

She told me that other moms are talking to her about my son's best friend being a bad influence on the others, and my son by connection, and that they're grumbling about not wanting their kids to hang around with ours and start chewing tobacco. Oy.

OK, so, tomorrow I pull S15 out of school early, take him out for lunch, take him to see this assessment counselor, and hopefully learn something about each other. I'm wondering if they're going to pee-test him. I don't know how he feels about that but I'd really be mad and feel personally violated by it.

I have a bunch of stories I can drag out for him about real people he knows, but my words aren't getting through to him. He has a 30yo cousin who's messing up her life and all her relationships with a probable drug habit. An uncle who can't fly on airplanes without a miserable weaning period from the pot he's hooked on, and who's drunk and pees his pants on the couch. A grandfather who overcame alcoholism. A mom who overcame addiction to cigarettes. That's all I've got, but I haven't wanted to throw his family members under the bus while he's still practically a kid.

So I guess tomorrow I'll be a crazy reefer madness parent and hope it does more good than harm. Interestingly, the boy has wound up in my bed to sleep the past few nights, so he sure doesn't hate me too much. It's so funny to see my giant grown nearly-man curled up in my bed like when he was a baby. I don't flatter myself too much; I know he's there for the dogs mostly since they insist on my bed.

[NLW]

Outrage just doesn't work in something like this

Adinva,

Your insight stopped me in my tracks.

I'm still regularly 'outraged' by what STBX does.

But it doesn't work.

I can't express it to him, and if I keep experiencing it, I'm just stuck.

This has helped me no end.

Thankyou.

[adinva]

Thanks NLW, I appreciate that. I noticed the thing with outrage a while into my sitch and I really believe it has no place. You're right, it was keeping me stuck too. I'm very suspicious of it when I see it now.

[RockJC]

I don't advocate outrage. In fact I agree with you, and wish I had more control over my emotions. I couldn't handle what you are handling with such calm. When I get angry, it is usually counterproductive and I regret it. I notice that this situation is forcing me to get better control over this particular emotion.

I think the right reaction isn't rage, but Pity. My W like your H is in a lot of emotional pain. After pity, grace and forgiveness. Personally, I have some emotions to work through before I am there.

[Valeska19]

.I think the right reaction isn't rage, but Pity Empathy. My W like your H is in a lot of emotional pain. After pity Because of empathy, grace and forgiveness can happen. Personally, I have some emotions to work through before I am there.

There.. fixed that for ya.

[25yearsmlc]

25, I respect your input so much. I am right on the edge of reefer madness and well aware of it. My only saving grace is that I have been literally the coolest most patient and respectful mom ever up until now so it's a real one-off and hopefully shocking.


Adinva,^^^that's a pretty huge "saving grace" my friend. It will help you.

There are a couple of parents who think I'm a little nuts, and some who think taking S15 in for this assessment is awesome.

I don't think it's nuts. You're worried. But like you, I'm into what works. And I am not feelin' it, but since you're uber coolness mama, then let's see.

Make sure your attitude while you're there is honest concerned interest and not an "I told ya so!"

But then, you were never going to do that, were you?


I'm not sure it's the right thing to do, myself, but I'm willing to be upfront about that. We're experiencing it together and we'll learn and adjust as needed I guess.

exactly! You don't know...HE doesn't know. So You're both going to learn. Fair enough.


I was hoping it would be a recovered junkie who could tell him in ways he would understand why and how to cool it with this stuff. I am still telling myself there's no way I'm signing him up for a treatment program that meets two nights a week. I'm still tempted by denial.


I hear you.

BTW SIDENOTE, I gave up alcohol for Lent. Not a big deal, or so I thought. But I'm in a wine club. And I have to say, this is a big fat drag. (But I stupidly told the kids so now they're watching. Geez, I can't blow it.)

Alcohol free wine is horrible FYI.

Point is, it's hard to tell your kids not to party or smoke pot when giving up alcohol just for Lent, is so damn inconvenient. It's socially affecting us at the wine club, obviously. I don't know your son's social circles but are ALL his peeps partiers? How many friends will he think he's going to lose by changing this behavior?

My guess is the most likely Non partiers are the athletes. D15's team gets drug tested and for HER, basketball is a major part of her life that she likes. She is on varsity now and my guess is that the team is the biggest reason she hasn't given into temptation.

I say that with the proviso that she could be lying to me. But a drug test would reveal that. She saw a senior get kicked off for having consumed alcohol. I don't recall how the girl got caught, but she's off the team now.
How often are they tested there?

(I think THC shows up on drug tests for 30 days, unlike alcohol...)

SO- my point about the alcohol & wine club is that, To your son, saying "don't smoke pot...ever...or for the next 3 years..." will seem HUGE.

Maybe to him it will not appear doable. He'll need to learn to take it a shorter amount of time...as they say "one day at a time". THAT is something a junkie could tell him.


But the fact is, he's doing it in our house, he's doing it under my nose, he's been caught one two three times now, he's storing the stuff in his hiding place supposedly for friends who couldn't take it home. He's just about begging me to care and do something. And when he defied my consequences and sneaked out I felt like I needed to respond with something really big.

okay now. See, somehow the only part of this^^ I knew was that he has smoked and that he snuck out. (Where to??) SO yes, you do have to do something really big...yeah, I get that.



I have been told this is completely confidential, it won't be reported to the school, team, police, or anyone. I might not submit it for insurance reimbursement and just cough up the $175, because I still fear that "permanent record" idea they used to hold over our heads when I was a kid.

pay out of pocket absolutely. Especially with electronic medical records, you never know where they'll go or who will access them. I don't mean to sound paranoid. But I do health care law and have seen my client corporation "lose" chunks of records to a nutty IT guy we had fired...nice...cost over $600k to semi repair the damage. As for the privacy loss- Who knows?



I have been tempted to call them up ahead of time and say, by the way, this is what I want him to get out of this meeting, and this is what I want you to cover. I decided not to because I'm so wanting to smooth this over for S15 and help it be easy for him.

Prepare some questions for YOU to get answers to and make sure you leave no question unasked...

BTW I finally talked to the mom who hosted him the night he snuck out. I didn't mention to her that she supposedly picked him up, and she didn't mention it to me. But I told her I don't know what any individual of these boys is doing, I can only tell her that among the group, it is going on.

And she looked me in the eye, and said, I'm so glad my B__ is so stubborn. Boy if he doesn't like the taste of something or doesn't want to do something he is NOT going to do it. I don't have to worry about him, I know he's not into that stuff. I said, "well that's nice. I asked my S if he liked the taste of it and he said he did. He also liked how it made him feel. And he and his friend lied about the chewing tobacco being someone else's for a long time before they admitted to doing it. I guess sometimes they might act more innocent than they are." I'm not going to convince her.

You don't have to convince her. All you "have to do" is act w/integrity..

But to me, having integrity on this issue means you don't cover for or go along with deceit. If you had SEEN him smoke, that would probably mean telling her. The only limit to that would be if you thought the parents were nutty or abusive.

But being so actively in denial as she is, (who else would talk so confidently but a woman terrified of being wrong?) makes me wonder what she is so energized by...or who she is afraid of?

Hey I admit my d15 might be lying to me. But SHE will pay the consequences if she is.

Hey, At least we'll save on expensive private colleges if they get arrested....(I'm joking. Why yes, It's a coping mechanism )


Oh yeah she said they do the "bro showers" at her house too and she says it's definitely not to smoke pot. I asked if she didn't think it was a little weird that homophobic adolescent male athletes are taking showers for extended periods in our upstairs bathrooms? Naaahhhh, she's pretty sure it's fine.

WTH? WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? I HAVE to ask my s25 about that. I'm flummoxed.


She told me that other moms are talking to her about my son's best friend being a bad influence on the others, and my son by connection, and that they're grumbling about not wanting their kids to hang around with ours and start chewing tobacco. Oy.

The deal with chewing tobacco is it's OVERT tobacco use (not hidden pot use) and it may also suggest a "redneckness" to it she may feel snobbishly superior about. I might say "it's not what they do openly in front of me that I worry about."

And Ad, you cannot store pot at your house. That is a huge legal risk in several ways.

I'd give one warning to him AND by extension to the others, (making sure that he tells them you said this OR you tell them yourself)

that you will toss out whatever you find. Flush it down the toilet with your son watching...that will keep them from leaving it at your place...

.

OK, so, tomorrow I pull S15 out of school early, take him out for lunch, take him to see this assessment counselor, and hopefully learn something about each other. I'm wondering if they're going to pee-test him. I don't know how he feels about that but I'd really be mad and feel personally violated by it.

Why would you feel violated by it? B/C it's "confidential"? Am I confusing two different events?

I have a bunch of stories I can drag out for him about real people he knows, but my words aren't getting through to him. He has a 30yo cousin who's messing up her life and all her relationships with a probable drug habit. An uncle who can't fly on airplanes without a miserable weaning period from the pot he's hooked on, and who's drunk and pees his pants on the couch.

what?? We HAVE to connect on the alt universe. See Kaffe Diem if you can b/c he can hook us up.


A grandfather who overcame alcoholism. A mom who overcame addiction to cigarettes. That's all I've got, but I haven't wanted to throw his family members under the bus while he's still practically a kid.

oh. I get that. But you have YOU quitting cigarettes as a great example. That is a big deal. I dragged my mom through a pulmonary ward to get her to quit when she was 70. A pulmonologist friend showed her several cancer patients on ventilators. My mom insisted SHE would "die quickly" and he told her "oh we don't allow that anymore. Thanks to your daughter the L, we HAVE to keep you plugged in for a LONG time..."

She cut back by about half then. But today, my dear mom has vascular dementia & it's COMPLETELY related to her smoking.

Someone could argue about her being 91 and getting it anyhow. But no. All of my aunts are alive, all 6 of them. Her sisters who are older, including the one who is 100, are all fully lucid. My 100 y/o aunt uses Skype and email and oh guess what? SHE did not smoke.

That's the only difference. My mom is in great physical shape looks wise. But my 100 year old aunt, at the age of 90 began ballroom dancing..seriously. Now she wins dance contests. Of course in her age group that might not be saying a lot.

What is saying a lot is that she began the lessons at my mom's age. I can't see my mom taking up ANY new activity b/c she is having memory problems as it is. Bottom line there are 6 old women and the only ones who have memory problems or dementia, smoked. The differences are startling.
The 2 smokers are not the oldest ones. It's Heart breaking and little known b/c all we ever focus on are the lungs when it comes to smoking.

BTW, my MIL was a big time smoker. For years a chain smoker and she never really cut back. She passed away 2 years ago (age 70) from lung cancer that went to the brain. She lived almost 2 years w/it, and it was SO HARD on...everyone. It's an ugly miserable way to die.



So I guess tomorrow I'll be a crazy reefer madness parent and hope it does more good than harm. Interestingly, the boy has wound up in my bed to sleep the past few nights, so he sure doesn't hate me too much. It's so funny to see my giant grown nearly-man curled up in my bed like when he was a baby. I don't flatter myself too much; I know he's there for the dogs mostly since they insist on my bed.

I love this^^^...it's his way to reach out for some "mama time". This^^^ is very signficant to me. And good. And a little bittersweet. He knows he's in the dog house but doesn't know how to get out.

Can you help him with that? Maybe see tomorrow as the place to get him a road map.

Sometimes s25 asks me for a back massage for his "sore muscles from working out" and I think it's b/c they can't say "can I sit on your lap?" Or "I need some cuddling, mama."

My d's would say something like that even now, when they get their baby voices on. But man cubs like your s15 and my S25 can't do that.

Tomorrow might not be a bust. It might be darn good.

Be open to the good possibilities too. My uber positive friend Carol would say "it's an opportunity for you to meet a challenge, together".


No matter what happens tomorrow (well, within reason), he will still love you after this. And on the off chance that something violative happens, then share in the outrage with your son.

Unlike with your h, your outrage MAY WELL work w/your son. You're on the same team, which is his team.
Go team!
((( )))

[25yearsmlc]

I don't advocate outrage. In fact I agree with you, and wish I had more control over my emotions. I couldn't handle what you are handling with such calm. When I get angry, it is usually counterproductive and I regret it. I notice that this situation is forcing me to get better control over this particular emotion.

I think the right reaction isn't rage, but Pity. My W like your H is in a lot of emotional pain. After pity, grace and forgiveness. Personally, I have some emotions to work through before I am there.

well said.^^^ No matter how "right" the anger feels, no matter how justified, this place (DBing) stresses finding solutions to our situations.

And anger sure did not work in my situation. It just does not help.

It was hard to let go of b/c I defended it, I almost cultivated it. I believed in it. And I was wrong, b/c it harmed me, our marriage and our children, far more than it helped anyone or anything.