Yeah T, it makes sense that you'd need to call your H out on the fact that he is seeing OW when he specifically said that was not part of what he'd be using the separation for. If he's going to try to be sneaky and cover stuff up then your separation isn't accomplishing what either of you thought it would, and being upfront is better IMO.
My H and I have no such agreement, he was conclusive that we were done and has never given me any indication at all that there was any hope of reconciling, and we have been progressing very slowly but with no signs of wavering, toward divorce. So what he's up to in the meantime is really not meaningful even if it hurts to think about.
Hey AnotherStander I picked on what you said about marriage even though I found it quite valuable and worth discussing and very good feedback. I'm going to pick on something else you said:
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The LBS cannot control the estranged WAS, they have ZERO control or influence over them. The LBS can set boundaries, but can't enforce them, because they have no M to enforce them through.
That's not what boundaries are, not what their for, and it doesn't take a marriage or even any commitment or interest on the other person's part, to have a boundary.
As the LBS I can say I don't think we should see other people while we're separated. If my spouse disagrees, we don't have an agreement, he just knows my opinion. If I say, I don't want you to see other people while we're separated and if you do, I will stop interacting with you except about the kids. That's a boundary, and the enforcement is what I WILL DO to protect myself if my boundary is breached. A marriage is not for enforcing boundaries IMO. Just because we were married didn't stop my H from getting emotionally attached outside the marriage, and when he did that I had every right and a responsibility to set a boundary that if I felt hurt and disconnected because of certain behaviors I would do something - go to counseling myself, consider separating, whatever. I did not set or even know I could set a boundary like that or enforce it, and our marriage disintegrated. Even in a healthy marriage, people need to have boundaries and enforce them all by themselves. A marriage is not a boundary enforcer.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
Thank you SemperFi. How are your teens doing with this? My 12yo seems just fine taking whatever attention he gets from my WAH and not thinking too much about what's going on. My 15yo seems hurt, angry, and like he is trying very hard to appear like he doesn't care.
S14 I think feels stuck and tries to defend both us - just wants everything back like it used to be. Most heartbreaking thing for me was when we drove by the hotel I stayed at for a few months and he commented that he was glad that I was back at home - no 14 y/o should have had to experience that set of emotions IMHO.
S16 quiet and reserved and tries to avoid anything related to the situation. has made a couple of comments like "... M just seems angry and frustrated all the time." also sometimes says to her occasionally ".... calm down woman....". Inappropriate and it often gets a strong reaction from her which I think is what he wants. Sometimes he seems to be kidding and sometimes not. Even says same comment to me at times. Similar to your, I think that he is trying to appear like he doesn't care and no impact.
S8 seems oblivious for the most part. his world still mostly the same (tuck him in bed each night together, etc...). Diagnosed w/severe apraxia so consistent routines are incredibly important for him and he doesn't speak that much of very clearly. a little tougher to judge how he's doing but given his learning challenges (and the fact that he has already been displaced from 1 household) I am very concerned about this situation could impact him.
GAL is hard for kids also I guess! Why can the WAS not recognize and open their heart to working on things???? Oh yeah - forgot, the MLC fog I guess.
Originally Posted By: adinva
I can teach them to handle life's curveballs with grace, but I don't know how I'm going to teach them not to throw these curveballs themselves when they hit 40.
Great point! Teaching to handle with grace and focus on what they have the most control over is he best learning we can provide for now.
How not to throw the curveball is the $1M question right? I keep telling myself that as much as is stinks for the LBS and others, this has to also be gut-wrenching and guilt ridden for the WAS.
Maybe we'll still be around when kids reach 40 and can share this website and a gentle 2x4.
Seems like you have been doing a great job throughout your journey. Keep the faith and keep posting.
Me-48,W-51 M-22,T-24 S- 18,16,9 Feb-Jul '11 Away from Home, after initial B date Aug-Dec '11 Back at Home on couch Dec '11-now Same bedroom, room mates only Dec '14 W files initial D paperwork
I'm married until I'm divorced. It's simpler for me, and it feels right, and I pledged myself, my heart and my life, to a commitment to marriage.
I understand what you're saying, but personally when I hear people say things like this it makes me think they're clinging to something that no longer exists, and that it may be keeping them from detaching and moving forward. The point I was trying to make (and perhaps didn't make too well) is that your old marriage really is dead and gone. As Michele says in DR, what you should be striving for is not a restoration of your old marriage, but building a new relationship and marriage moving forward. Your spouse doesn't want to go back to the old M, and you shouldn't either. Admitting to yourself that your M is dead does not mean going out and having sex all over the place. It just means acknowledging that the only way forward is to forge a new path WITH OR WITHOUT your H.
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Do I tell them, hey, it's fine to date, have sex, whatever, with anyone now; we're no longer committed to each other, we're no longer required to be faithful, because honestly the marriage ended when dad started emotionally cutting me off, and it really ended when he moved out.
That's not the point. The point is it only takes one spouse to end a marriage, and they end it long before a D paper is ever issued. What you can tell your sons is this: "Sons, let this serve as a lesson to you. Do not ever put your marriage on autopilot. Do not ever assume your marriage can survive anything. Do not ever assume that your marriage is fine and needs no work. Because what I have learned from what happened between your father and me is that marriage takes consistent, hard, faithful work to maintain. It takes a serious commitment to stay in constant communication with your spouse so that you know not just how you feel about the M, but how they feel about it too. Because when you quit knowing or caring about your spouse's feelings, then your spouse will wall themselves off and begin the end of your M, and you cannot stop them. So view your M not as static but dynamic, you will have to change, grow and adapt to keep it strong."
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The rest is just a meaningless piece of paper. So don't worry, as soon as you don't feel married, you're not...go ahead, have fun, move on, you deserve to be happy.
That's exactly what your H (and society) is teaching them. You need to teach them a different view. You need to teach them that it's NOT about the paper. But...
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to BE in the marriage while you're in it, to make a good faith effort to FIX it when it breaks, and to at least wait until it's legally over before hooking up with someone else. That's what I think I would tell my boys, and that's what I intend to live.
...they are going to be more inclined to follow your H's model than yours. Unfortunately that's just the way life is. Sons model their dads, daughters model their moms. So do the best you can, but understand that you can't force their destinies.
Oh Valeska (hi!) I was trying to think of what on earth people would be telling me to ask him for. I wasn't planning on asking him. People were telling me I was going to obsess and that I wasn't detached enough, and that my imagination was going wild. So for mental exercise I tried to verbalize some reasons I could think of why they'd be telling me I should ask him about the charge.
I don't think I should. I was wondering why they did. Those were all the reasons I could think of, and they weren't compelling to me.
I'm going to give it as much importance as if he bought $250 worth of chewing gum and the only store open happened to be the ___ Couples Boutique. And forget about it and keep on doing what I'm doing.
Which isn't much when it comes down to my marriage. I'm trying to coparent with him, I'm trying to appear confident and attractive around him with some mixed results because I'm also dealing with some very heavy stuff, and as far as acting like I'll be fine without him that is not an act at all. I actually am fine right now and will continue to be fine.
AnotherStander, I don't see how you can suggest that someone who is in the process but not completed with a legal divorce is clinging to something that no longer exists. Why such a rush to move on that you'd be willing to move on before it's even legally over? I guess to me the piece of paper is important in addition to the emotional and spiritual marriage; it's a contract I agreed to and it's not over. And if we all stopped trying as soon as our spouse severed the emotional and spiritual bonds...well there would be no divorcebusting. We'd all already be done.
I still have as much if not more worth salvaging with my H right now than with hypothetical future guys. What a wonderful example it would be for our kids if we were able to learn to resolve conflict together, learn to reignite our relationship, and mature into a better marriage than before. Even if, as 25 is finding out, they're not ecstatic that we saved our marriage, it is an incredible lesson in working through life's challenges.
It is time consuming to get a divorce. First of all my state requires a one year waiting period when there are kids involved. Presumably that's because it's bad to make a rush decision to break up a kid's family. If we pay lip service to that by moving on during that period that's a missed opportunity to take some time and think and work on things.
Now we need to get an agreement together that tells how we'll divide up the property, the money, and the kids, and who will pay what to whom going forward. We don't have that finished so we run into my issue that my H is somehow spending family money on sex toys, and my concerns over who should be paying for summer camp and team fees. We have a lot to think about and negotiate. That I'm not seeking a new relationship does not mean I'm clinging to the old one, I'm just not out of the old one yet.
And finally, we need to file, go to court, and undo our marriage contract, at which point we're both legally single people and our property and money is clearly set apart. I'm planning on inviting H to start this process as soon as our separation agreement is done, and if he doesn't feel motivated to do it in a month or so I'll file myself. He has told me before he has no interest or timeframe or hurry to be divorced, that part he said didn't matter to him, he really was mostly interested in the financial separation. I don't understand that, but there's a lot I don't understand about things he says and does.
Once the divorce is done I will continue the life I've already been living, which is full and fulfilling, but I'll also be open to activities that might lead to a new relationship.
The fact that I'm doing things in this order, IMO, in no way suggests that I'm clinging to something that no longer exists. In fact I don't think I'm clinging to anything at all. I'm living through a long and painful process which might or might go any number of different ways, none of which we can predict.
For me, the marriage I am in actually DOES exist while the paper is in effect. It's in deep trouble and hasn't shown any signs yet of turning around, but don't start throwing dirt on it yet. It's not the marriage I used to have, which is dead, and it's not the marriage I want, which is hypothetical, but it legally exists until I'm released from my contract. And until then, well, I'm working on it in the only way that might be effective, by working on myself.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
I'm still married. Clearly my H has a different idea of marriage, in that he can have a R with someone other than me. But, that doesn't change how I feel about what being married means.
M: 9 yrs T: 13 yrs H:34 Me:35, S4, D2, S 7 months Dday 11/12-PA & multiple PAs Dbing 12/12 S 1/13 7/13 H moved back in basement. 8/13 #3 born 10/13 still cheating 10/13 He moves across country, I file for D
"Sons, let this serve as a lesson to you. Do not ever put your marriage on autopilot. Do not ever assume your marriage can survive anything. Do not ever assume that your marriage is fine and needs no work. Because what I have learned from what happened between your father and me is that marriage takes consistent, hard, faithful work to maintain. It takes a serious commitment to stay in constant communication with your spouse so that you know not just how you feel about the M, but how they feel about it too. Because when you quit knowing or caring about your spouse's feelings, then your spouse will wall themselves off and begin the end of your M, and you cannot stop them. So view your M not as static but dynamic, you will have to change, grow and adapt to keep it strong."
Sometimes the timing of the comments seems eerie..... Driving in to work this morning I was just thinking about ow to explain to my boys what happened and what I would say to encourage them at some point in the future when they were older - and then ran across these comments.
AS & adinva, thanks for sharing!
Me-48,W-51 M-22,T-24 S- 18,16,9 Feb-Jul '11 Away from Home, after initial B date Aug-Dec '11 Back at Home on couch Dec '11-now Same bedroom, room mates only Dec '14 W files initial D paperwork
The longer I've been working on me the more I seem to uncover that I can improve within me.
The process gets easier, sometimes it's actually fun because now I enjoy life so much more.
This work has also helped me deepen my R with my sons, I've gone from the controlling, fearful, rule bound mom to one they can share things with, one they want to go places with, one they seek out for advice.
I, too am married until the courts tell me I'm not. I'm not clinging to anything but rather respecting the vows I took. I made a mistake once of not respecting them and at that time recommitted to "from this day forward."
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
I fully understand your honoring of the legal contract aspect of a M - I agree with that. I also understand your aggravation over the $250 - I'd be absolutely furious. Like you, I would most likely not make any comments about it as there would simply be no positive resolution.
Originally Posted By: adinva
He has told me before he has no interest or timeframe or hurry to be divorced, that part he said didn't matter to him, he really was mostly interested in the financial separation.
The questions below are mostly rhetorical...
I can't say I understand this at all. Does he know how you feel about your definition of M? Obviously you care if there's OW involved. Would he care if you had OM? What's the point being in a big hurry for financial separation if you're not going to follow thru with actual divorce?
This was mentioned twice during exploratory conversations we had while out walking on Saturday mornings. One was when our taxes came up and whether we'd file jointly or separately, and what the rules were, and I asked him if he had a timeframe or idea of when he wanted to be divorced and he said he didn't care about that, mostly just the separation agreement. On another occasion I apologized because my convention coinciding with my mom's grave illness had really set back my time available to think about responding to the draft separation agreement and I'd need more time if he would allow it, and he indicated that it was ok and he was not in a hurry.
Anyway, lack of hurry then doesn't indicate anything about where he is now, really. I just know he's not asking me to hurry up, at this point.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
