I was getting some good feedback on the relatively minor issue that a year and a half into separation and just before we told the kids and a week before he moved out he spent what is to us a very large amount of money at a Couples Boutique nearby that sells sex toys and lingerie. That upset me because it brings up feelings I feel are pointless, jealousies and disappointments, resentments and insecurities, anger about money, hopelessness to see him moving on, and irritation to see him acting out like someone I've never known.
I was told by several that this is probably innocuous and there might be a good explanation that would prevent my mixed up feelings, but I sincerely doubt that. All the events and hurts that are behind my mixed up feelings are still there even if he was shopping with a buddy who had no credit card with him and just couldn't wait to get his girlfriend's Christmas gift.
And as I've reminded H numerous times, he moved out. His business is his business and mine is mine. But that doesn't mean I don't have feelings. Denying my feelings in large part got me here, and is a major project I've been working on for almost two years now. I'm not going to tell my feelings to detach because honestly that's not always healthy. Sometimes you have to feel them and sort them out. You have to respect them.
Also, I was really impressed with the answer about how marriage is emotional, spiritual and legal, and the real parts of it ended long ago, making it sort of ok that my husband is forming new relationships or at least having sex with someone. I thought that made sense yesterday, and today I don't anymore.
I'm married until I'm divorced. It's simpler for me, and it feels right, and I pledged myself, my heart and my life, to a commitment to marriage. It looks very likely that my H isn't going to stay in it, but until it's legally undone I'm legally married. I've learned enough to know all situations are more complicated than anyone can know, so I don't speak for anyone but me. But this is what I considered this morning:
I've got two boys, who in 10 years will be considering getting married. Do I tell them, hey, it's fine to date, have sex, whatever, with anyone now; we're no longer committed to each other, we're no longer required to be faithful, because honestly the marriage ended when dad started emotionally cutting me off, and it really ended when he moved out. The rest is just a meaningless piece of paper. So don't worry, as soon as you don't feel married, you're not...go ahead, have fun, move on, you deserve to be happy.
They do deserve to be happy, but their spouses and their honor and self-respect deserve to follow the rules they signed up for, to BE in the marriage while you're in it, to make a good faith effort to FIX it when it breaks, and to at least wait until it's legally over before hooking up with someone else. That's what I think I would tell my boys, and that's what I intend to live.
I have no control over my H and I don't want him back right now, but it does feel a little unfair that he gets to find himself and seek gratification and I get to manage unruly teens, help them with laundry and cooking, keep the house up, take care of people and work 24/7. I do love what I do, but it isn't 100% fulfilling me because I want love too, eventually.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
I agree 100% with what you said. I'm still married. Emotionally, spiritually & legally is all tied together for me. Whether my H continues to sleep with OP, I will honor my vows until they are legally done. Period. It's who I am. It's what I believe. And I know how devastating it is to find out the person you pledged that to, feels differently. It's a punch to the gut. The end.
Detaching is not about stuffing your feelings. To me, it's getting to a place where every action your H does, does not affect your POM. But you can't ignore these. What you ignore with multiply. I too was a stuffer. I HATE feeling my feelings. But I wantbto grow. So let's keep feeling those icky, uncomfortable feelings!!
I get being so angry!! Being the one dealing with everything, while they flit around "finding themselves". I'm lonely, I need love, attention, support, sex. But, alas, I must give these to myself & accept help from my friends & family.
You have so much strength, A! You have helped me tremendously!! I will be thinking of you today.
M: 9 yrs T: 13 yrs H:34 Me:35, S4, D2, S 7 months Dday 11/12-PA & multiple PAs Dbing 12/12 S 1/13 7/13 H moved back in basement. 8/13 #3 born 10/13 still cheating 10/13 He moves across country, I file for D
They do deserve to be happy, but their spouses and their honor and self-respect deserve to follow the rules they signed up for, to BE in the marriage while you're in it, to make a good faith effort to FIX it when it breaks, and to at least wait until it's legally over before hooking up with someone else. That's what I think I would tell my boys, and that's what I intend to live.
I've certainly had more R talks with my sons than I think I would have without this event in our lives. Our talks have been along the lines of what you've written above.
And I think out sons see that we have made mistakes, hurt, grown, worked hard on ourselves and changed and that's how you get through life.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
Detaching is confusing. It's not letting your WAS's actions dictate your moods and feelings. Your feelings come from your thoughts, and you control your thoughts. You can take an action personally or not and it's completely your choice, whether it was meant personally or not in the first place. But then you still have feelings, you still care, you still think your thoughts the way they are until your feelings give you a reason to analyze and modify them.
I don't like what my H is doing. I don't like that he even walked into a sex shop. I don't like that he's ogling teenagers with his ridiculous friend. I don't like that he left our family. I don't like that he won't tell me anything. BUT.
I clearly saw that something was wrong with him. He couldn't get out of bed. Anyone who had an ear would get an earful from him about property taxes, the government, gun control, kids these days, whatever his mind was mad about at the moment. He really was miserable. He was the Grumpy Old Man at age 40. He was Archie Bunker. He used to tell me his dad was like Archie Bunker. I tried understanding, I tried accommodating, I tried explaining, I tried loving, I tried arguing, I tried pleading, I tried asking for a doctor's intervention, I tried asking for counseling. There was literally nothing I could do. What I could do I did.
Once my eyes were opened by this forum and IC, I tried respecting him, I tried showing acts of love, I tried being agreeable, I tried modifying my behavior, I tried communicating better, I tried hearing his meaning in spite of his tone. These did not turn things around. There is still literally nothing I can do.
So he moves on. So he becomes promiscuous, or a lecher, or a monk. So he spends his time working out, working, watching tv. So what. It is all his to figure out. He will date, I know that. He will probably date someone he's had his eye on for a long time. He will probably think all his problems would have never come about if he had been with her and not with me. Whatever. He will think all kinds of things and they may in fact be correct.
All I can do I'm doing. It still hurts sometimes.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
I think it always hurts, even when you've truly moved on, you get the pangs of "Why wasn't I good enough"? Of course we know we were good enough and we know the parts we played in the failure of our relationships, but every once in a while it surfaces.
Ad, you are entitled to be loved and wanted and cherished. Never forget it. All spouses who walk think if only evil LBS had been better, this wouldn't have happened. Whether or not they finally take responsibility for their own actions is up to them, not us. And sometimes, I truly believe, that people cannot move forward if they stay together. I do not discount starting again with Spouse, but sometimes I think they have to know what they are leaving to know what they actually had.
And sometimes, we are done, by the time they realize that.
Ok, let's roleplay. What do you think I would ask and what would be the useful point of it?
QuestionA: Hey H, I noticed a $250 charge at ___ Couples Boutique when I was going through the credit card statements. That's not mine, was it yours? Answer1: Yes. Answer2: Yes, so? Answer3: No, OMG someone stole our identity and went one time to a sex shop!!!! I will take care of that right now. Can't believe I didn't see it on the statement before. [kidding. not a likely answer.] Answer4: Oh, yeah, I'm feeling very frustrated with our long separation and just needed some self-entertainment, but I consider that private so it's really not information I was going to share with you. [I'm really stretching for an alternate answer. I couldn't imagine him saying this.] Answer5: Yes. It was for my new girlfriend. We are separated after all, and it's none of your business. POINT: I have no idea. I get no peace of mind from answers 1 or 2. I don't really want to know answer 5. I'm not sure I want to know answer 4. and 3 was a joke.
QuestionB: Hey H, I was hurt to see that you spent $250 at ___ Couples Boutique when I was going through the credit card statements. Would you mind telling me why you spent family money at this place? Answer1: I set our financial separation date as 9/2012 and the agreement specified how much money we move around to make it equitable, so what I spend my money on now is not family money and not your business. Answer2: No, I don't have to tell you anything about that. Answer3: It's my money, and that's none of your business. POINT: Again, not sure what I'm expecting to gain from this. Let him know I feel hurt (um, so what?), let him know I'm examining his purchase (so he stops showing me the card statements? I think he's closing that card anyway, once our recurring charges have all been moved to my own card), let him know I'm judging how he spends his money (family money?). Trying to make him feel bad? Trying to make him feel bad will make him feel LESS bad, and more justified.
QuestionC: Hey H, what was that $250 charge at ___ Couples Boutique? Are you seeing someone? Answer1: Yes. And that's none of your business. Answer2: Yes, I'm in love and having the best sex of my life, but don't worry I don't plan to get married again so I'm not going to push you on getting a divorce or anything. Answer3: No. [most likely answer] "well was that your charge?" Yes. "well what was it for" Stuff I was buying. "what stuff?" I don't need to tell you anything about that. [usually I don't press him with follow up questions but he usually can shut down a conversation with one word answers and grunts. When pushed to the wall he will tell me I'm on a need to know basis.] POINT: would it be to confirm or deny that he's seeing someone? I don't see that as relevant in my sitch. my sitch is longstanding and little movement due to many factors - I think he's depressed, I think he's taken all of his emotion out of the marriage and placed it elsewhere for YEARS, I think he's having a MLC, and if he's in a relationship with someone that's just another cube on the iceberg. If he's not seeing someone and the charge was nothing meaningful and he was buying $250 worth of his favorite porno magazines does that make me feel better about my sitch? no....
Reasons not to ask about it: 1. It is a small point of information in a huge database of things wrong with my marriage. Dealing with this one point does less good than harm. I should forget about it. 2. It looks as if I am snooping and I am not. I'll admit when I scoured those bills to find my work charges that I need to pay him back for, my eye was attracted to charges in Hawaii, LA, etc, places he stopped en route to working overseas so quite explainable and worth only a split second of attention. I tried not to be looking for "evidence" but there was an element of that that was hard to suppress. 3. It will cause him to be defensive, to have an unpleasant interaction with me, to feel like he needs to justify, and to reinforce to me that I should have no hope or expectations with him. It's been a while since he needed to remind me of that.
What good would it do to ask? 1. If the charge was completely innocuous, mere self-entertainment (which I still begrudge since I just paid that much out of my limited funds for S15's new cleats and dress clothes, and that much again for S15's summer lax league, and that much again for S15's pay-to-play school athletic fee and birthday dinner) - oops that was a long parenthetical - will I feel peace of mind that we're both just two hurting people trying to comfort ourselves through a difficult time? Um, I MIGHT. But I can feel that peace of mind without asking him about that credit card charge too. 2. If asking about the charge reveals that he has moved on and has a girlfriend perhaps this gives me the reality check needed to detach and move on myself. POSSIBLE but not likely. I view a new girlfriend as like I said, a cube on the iceberg. I'm still here DBing and plan to do that, to be a woman only a fool would leave, to keep the road home paved and smooth. On the day my divorce papers come finalized, I will turn the page and move along, if I feel like it then. If I'm beginning to connect with H by then I'll be open to continuing to DB, but that's IF. 3. To "express" my hurt and disapproval. Well, I'm all about respecting my feelings and giving voice to them, and dealing with them out in the open, but with moderation and awareness of what reaction they may provoke. I've given my H enough of my hurt and disapproval I think. I told him two times that I thought divorce was wrong and what he was doing was wrong. I told him one time how very much hurt and anger I felt at the way he let me know he was done only AFTER he was no longer willing to work with me on the marriage. I don't need to keep coming back to that, and that's not going to help me any to keep smacking him with it.
So, what am I missing? Still see any point in not letting this issue drop?
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
I've got two boys, who in 10 years will be considering getting married. Do I tell them, hey, it's fine to date, have sex, whatever, with anyone now; we're no longer committed to each other, we're no longer required to be faithful, because honestly the marriage ended when dad started emotionally cutting me off, and it really ended when he moved out. The rest is just a meaningless piece of paper. So don't worry, as soon as you don't feel married, you're not...go ahead, have fun, move on, you deserve to be happy.
They do deserve to be happy, but their spouses and their honor and self-respect deserve to follow the rules they signed up for, to BE in the marriage while you're in it, to make a good faith effort to FIX it when it breaks, and to at least wait until it's legally over before hooking up with someone else. That's what I think I would tell my boys, and that's what I intend to live.
Great insight and perspective Advina!
I read this a little earlier and it really resonated with me. I have S16,S14,S8 and have struggled with how I will explain things to them when the time comes to have that conversation comes. Your summary is very concise and easy to communicate - thanks for sharing it.
For my situation, I would also consider adding in something like "... you can only control your own actions and are ultimately accountable for yourself - spiritually, emotionally and legally so make sure that you are always striving to be the best man/husband/friend that you can possibly be...."
Thoughts and prayers are with you in your situation. Thanks for sharing your story.
Me-48,W-51 M-22,T-24 S- 18,16,9 Feb-Jul '11 Away from Home, after initial B date Aug-Dec '11 Back at Home on couch Dec '11-now Same bedroom, room mates only Dec '14 W files initial D paperwork
Thank you SemperFi. How are your teens doing with this? My 12yo seems just fine taking whatever attention he gets from my WAH and not thinking too much about what's going on. My 15yo seems hurt, angry, and like he is trying very hard to appear like he doesn't care.
I can teach them to handle life's curveballs with grace, but I don't know how I'm going to teach them not to throw these curveballs themselves when they hit 40.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
Yeah, it doesn't really seem like asking him will do anything for you. The biggest thing in your sitch, is that you are hurt. Telling him that won't do anything. He isn't going to say he is sorry, he isn't going to comfort you. BTW- #3...I spit my coffee at my screen. HILARIOUS!
The only reason I just recently asked my H if he was still seeing OW when I saw a bday card from her, is that my H told me he wasn't going to date during our S. See, my H still tells me he loves me, that I'm hot, still tries to sleep with me (seriously, he tried to put the moves on me last night. I think he done lost his mind!!) So, for me, it was to clear it up, put it out there that I know and will be acting accordingly. I didn't tell him I was hurt, just give me the facts. Now, if I see more proof, no need to say a thing.
It hurts. I'd be more concerned about you if it didn't.
M: 9 yrs T: 13 yrs H:34 Me:35, S4, D2, S 7 months Dday 11/12-PA & multiple PAs Dbing 12/12 S 1/13 7/13 H moved back in basement. 8/13 #3 born 10/13 still cheating 10/13 He moves across country, I file for D
