CV, let me ask you a question... Ignoring him and not talking to him... what does that do for you? Does it make you feel better? It seems to me that it takes too much effort and if it's a part of the same cycle, then at least that's something you can break. You said that it doesn't change anything. He still acts like everything is fine. So all I see that doing is causing more strife.... I don't live in your house nor do I live in your body so I truly am asking you what it is doing for you.
As far as your comment to me and calling BS (lol), I have thought long and hard about that. In part, I do understand what you are saying to me. He used to put more effort in than he does now. But isn't that every marriage? My communication skills were poor. I do need to take responsibility for that. Now I'm not saying he doesn't have things he needs to take responsibility for but I can't make him do that. All I can do is understand what I have done. And by not communicating my own needs, by constantly catering to what he wanted (because of my clearly codependent tendencies), I have subconsciously communicated to him over and over again that some of his behaviors are ok. I never had many boundaries and if I did, I never really enforced them. That is the dynamic he is used to from me. Who is at fault there? Me. I created that. Did he help? Sure. But at the end of the day, I could have changed it at any time and I didn't until it got very bad.
Yes, it does make me feel better. It lets me get away from the crazy-making. I don't feel so "used." It makes me feel like I'm not powerless and I do have some control, that I don't have to just sit there and deal with whatever he dishes out or demands of me. I don't have to listen to him jabber on about his day, as if I care, when I couldn't give a flying flip. I'm also able to be productive toward my own interests, and my day doesn't have to be "all about him." It is awkward, it is weird. I love the days when he's at work. But until S12 is off and I can get a traveling job, it's the best I can get right now.
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He used to put more effort in than he does now. But isn't that every marriage?
Certainly it's the failed M's, anyway. There's also a difference between "he used to sweep you off your feet" and "he doesn't even meet your basic needs." There is something in-between. He doesn't have to be everything he was when you were dating; few are able to accomplish that. But he doesn't get to stop "caring."
I've never been very good at justifying something because "everybody else does it." There's some definitive rights and wrongs that don't change just because it's popular or not. I get that you believe/recognize your contribution to the problem. It may be that you could have turned the tides rather easily by just stepping up a bit. I don't know, but personally I doubt it. Your H doesn't seem very responsive to your requests now, and you've been pretty loud and clear, I'm thinking. Certainly he can't miss the fact that you've left. Yet other than lip-service, has he reacted? I don't think so.
I'm sure part of my discussion on this is fueled by my own sitch. I can relate to much of what you're saying, about co-dependency, not speaking up, not enforcing boundaries well. My issue with this, though, is I don't like the person I've had to become in order to accomplish communicating my needs to H. I don't like to have to issue ultimatums, threats, tit-for-tats, punishments, repeat myself 100 times, whatever, just in order to get his attention. Because I can't just say, "H would you please do X for me? It's very important to me and I'd really appreciate it," and actually have him respond. I don't like the "me" I have to be to get my needs met by him. I simply meet them myself and then I still like me. The only problem is them I'm not left with any reason to like him.
I've been chewing on some new information since yesterday because I just can't get a handle on my feelings about it. Thankfully this medium only presents you with the final draft, because this is probably going to take me 3 hours to type out.
Our current not-speaking arrangement started Thursday night, after H walked out of another discussion. This is not uncommon. He just decides he's done and leaves. I stopped him and told him how hurtful and inconsiderate that felt whenever he did that, and he came back and stood over me yelling and pointing his finger in my face. Obviously, that didn't help.
Our discussion was about his ADD diagnosis. I told him I knew I was no expert, but that people were telling me the someone can be diagnosed with ADD in one or two visits. I asked about his claim that they were "still considering it," after 4 months of visits. I pointed him to a number of things I had read online, testimonials by people that spoke of how devastating the problem can be in M, some from people that had ADD and could only see the damage after they were treated. H said that he could have written some of them himself. I don't even know what set him off, why he got up and left, angry. (crazy-making)
The next day, he emailed his counselor, stating that he believed he had it and asked what they needed to do to get a definitive diagnosis. He also contacted his GP and got off the Wellbutrin and onto Adderal, because we talked about it being for depression, not ADD. Then he started reading an ADD book that a counselor from 10 years ago gave him to read, advising him then that he should consider getting tested for ADD, but he never did. He never even read the book.
So between Friday night and Saturday, he read the whole book. He sent me an email with an apology, stating that the book fits him to a "T", that he regrets waiting this long to read it or check into it and apologized for the damage he caused our R. He also said that the counselor got back to him and pointed him to an online ADD test, that he should take that and then they would evaluate on his next visit. H took it and it indicated that he "likely" has ADD. H says he feels like he has hope, feels different, that perhaps it's the prescription.
So, I should be happy, right? I should have hope, too, right? But I don't.
See, he had this same exact reaction (minus the drugs) when he read the book on boundaries in M. It "fit him to a T," he was "so sorry," he knew what the problem was and was "going to address it." He had the same reaction when he read the book on narcissism, and the one on co-dependency. It's always the same.
It's heartbreaking, two-fold. First, I believe he genuinely sees the damage he has done, and he's sorry for it, so I feel bad for him. But then he "gets over it" and goes right back to his previous behaviors, and for me hope is shattered yet again.
The problem for me now is that I don't feel any hope this time. Nothing about this is translating to envisioning a happy future with him. I'm happy FOR him. I'm glad that he'll be able to address some of his behaviors, because they're detrimental to him whether he realizes it or not. I imagine he'll make a great H for his third W. I just don't see this as being the solution to OUR M. I don't think there is one. I feel a wall around my heart. It's the same gripping hold as when I stand near a tall ledge. It's not really fear, because I don't plan to jump, and I'm not afraid I will do so accidentally. It's just a solid heart-felt understanding that getting close to the edge (or to H) is a very bad idea, and I have absolutely no desire to do so. No more so than bungee jumping or sky-diving. No desire to do so whatsoever.
I had a very strange first reaction to his email. My first thought was, "Thank God! Now my job here is done and I'm free and can die in peace." I don't typically think in that sort of spiritual way, but it was almost like it was my assignment on this planet to help him, like Clarence in It's a Wonderful Life. And now that it's done, I'm free to go (more feeling like I'm crazy.) I didn't react at all like this is finally the solution to our M problems.
For our M, I'm afraid there is just too much damage done. I think I truly understand ILYBINILWY.
Oh, and I'm also extremely pixxed that this counselor could have pointed my H to this online test 4 months ago, on the very first visit when my H says he told him he wanted to be tested for ADD. I also think an online test is a really crappy application for a face-to-face professional. So I'm struggling with the "wrongness" of this amidst my detachment.
Man, I hate reading your post right now. I really really do.
My H has agreed to all of my demands! Treatment, counseling and giving up his drinking buddy. I'm going home! Only I'm sick. Honest to God I'm sick to death. I love him, CV, I do. But in love? Ugh.
I can't believe the way you described your reaction. That's how I felt! Is it sick and wrong I just wanted to hear that he was not willing to do those things. I feel so wrong saying that. Can't even manage to say that to my b/f. It feels almost evil to say hey I wanted my H not to go get help so I could leave and have a clearer conscience. I know my thinking is bad. Ugh.
Fire the therapist. Seriously. Gross incompetence if you ask me.
Well, he's not MY therapist to fire, unfortunately.
Sorry if my posts were hard to read. You said you felt the same way I described it. I know I've gotten here because I've simply ridden this crazy train too many times before. I know the script by heart. I didn't get the impression that your sitch was like that. Maybe it was and I just missed that? I could probably relate to that in your case if my H had had a PA; just too hard to get past, I think. But your H has yet to admit to that, right? In any case, I completely relate. And I suspect your family is not making it easy either, because I could imagine they don't want you to go back to him either.
My sitch compares in that he's made plenty of promises before and he's failed in all of them.
He's never admitted to the affair and never will. I just know that. I admitted to the fact that I was dating someone while we were apart. But that was a part of a whole other conversation. Meaning, I told him that I felt a different way in that R than I did in the current R with my H. It actually got far deeper than that. Unfairly, I said I was mad at him about the whole thing. I said that my life was going fine and that he came back and I wrecked my life over it. Is it reality? Probably not. Was it his fault? Definitely not.
He's never agreed to counseling. He's railed against it, in fact. And I should be happy he did, I suppose. Only I don't feel happy AT ALL. I'm trying so hard to sort it out but I can't, CV. Something is just not right inside of me and I can't seem to get it all figured out. I'm so frustrated with myself. And let's say I go back. Then what? I don't know how to feel differently. I just don't. It would be so much easier all the way around to feel differently. I love this man but I cannot find my way back. I don't trust him. AT ALL.
As far as my family? Well, the advice has run hot and cold. The two biggest influences I'm with right now are my brother and my mom. My mom does not want me going back. She's gentle in her approach about that, but she is resolved in her mind that is not what she wants for me. My brother thinks that if my H agrees to my demands, then I should "do the right thing" and go back. My b/f says that my H and I both love one another and that it is no more complicated than that. That I have a habit of complicating things (which is absolutely true) and that I need to not do that. My friend also thinks, though, that going back would not produce different results. And the funny thing is that I know that's probably right. Because, CV, I don't feel different. You mentioned having sex with your H. I haven't had sex with mine in 2 1/2 years. The thought of it makes me physically ill. Honest. He was with someone else and I just can't get beyond it. And yes, I've read all the books. And yes, this is probably a weakness in me.
I've been sitting here a week. I want to be at my house. I don't like living on a couch. I don't like not having privacy. I owned 2 houses and I'm on someone's couch! It's very uncomfortable. I miss my animals. My H constantly sent pics the last time of them... I asked him to stop doing that. That it just hurt me more. I'm thankful that he did stop doing that. I say that I miss him. But is that the truth? Not really. I miss my house and my animals and my stuff. But can I say that to anyone? No. Because I know I sound like an awful person. Truly, I feel like going back is like giving up on my life. I have a GREAT job waiting for me. I have a beautiful house. A H who claims to love me. Cold comfort... that's all it means to me. And I know I sound like a ungrateful b*tch and I'm going to he!!.
I don't think you sound like that at all. Of course, I'm saying a lot of what you're saying, so I'm probably not the one to judge.
So the question is, what CAN you make of it? If you haven't had sex with your H in 2 1/2 years, how does he react to that? Mine has been nothing near that long, but H still gripes a ton. I'm not sure either of you would be content with a sexless M, though I know you have zero desire with him.
Could you give your H a half-hearted agreement, go back to your "cold comfort" and your warm fur-babies and let it play out? It is possible that he'll fail, not that I'm hoping for it. But giving up the drinking won't likely be an easy task for him. I'm just thinking you can alleviate your conscience by giving him another chance, but only one and then you're done. Though I'm not sure you even need to give him another if he's promised and failed so many times before. At this point, it really sounds like it's just a matter of logistics. I wouldn't even try to change your mental state (re-engaging) for some time, until he has proven himself.
I don't know what your H gets out of the M. It sounds like he didn't spend any time with you anyway, between work and partying. What is HE hoping for if you come back? My H wants Norman Rockwell. He doesn't live his part, but he expects me to.
I can't tell you how to get the feeling back. I don't know how.
Hey CV! Sent this to my H today from Marriage Missions International. I thought you might relate:
WHY SOME SPOUSES GIVE UP
The following story is a parable meant to be used as an imaging tool. It’s not meant to give a spouse, who is ready to give up on a marriage, an excuse to do so. It can however, give the abandoned spouse a better understanding as to why their spouse may have decided to leave their marriage when they did.
More importantly however, this parable is meant to be used as a “wake-up call” to those spouses who are asleep to the fact that they’ve been neglecting their family. And if they don’t come to that realization and do something to drastically reverse their neglectful behavior immediately —they may wake up one morning to find themselves alone without a family to care for and spend time with.
Read the following edited story with an open mind and heart as to what the author Andy Stanley is trying to tell those who think their family should keep understanding why they spend so much time away from them. Pastor Stanley writes:
Use your imagination for just a moment. Imagine that your best friend walks up to you in your front yard one Saturday and asks you to do him a favor. You have some free time, and so you agree to do it. He walks over to his car, opens the trunk, and produces a thirty-pound rock.
Now here’s where you’re really going to have to use your imagination: At this point he hands you the rock and says, “I really need you to stand here with this rock until I return.” He explains why it’s important that you stand in that one spot with the rock and promises to return shortly to retrieve it. It’s a strange request, and his explanation doesn’t make a lot of sense, but this is someone you trust, so you agree. At this point he thanks you with extreme gratitude and then gets into his car and drives away.
An hour goes by. And what started out as a reasonable favor is beginning to get a little hard. But after all, this is your best friend, so you resign yourself to continue on and stand there. Another hour goes by and your arms are starting to ache. Everything in you wants to sit down, but you made a promise. Then suddenly, to your relief, your friend pulls in the driveway, jumps out of the car, and runs in your direction. You’re so relieved. If you weren’t holding the rock, you’d hug him.
But your joy is quickly crushed. Instead of relieving you of your burden he says, “I told you I was coming right back. But I need to run one more quick errand. If you’ll keep holding the rock, I’ll make it up to you when I return.” Once again, you trust that what you’re told is true. If your friend needs to run one more errand before relieving you that is just the way it is. So you agree. As he turns to go you can’t help but yell out, “Please hurry.” Off your friend goes and there you stand.
Another hour goes by. The sun begins to set. Your muscles are aching to be able to drop the rock. But you refuse to give in. You’re committed to holding up your part of what you promised. Besides, your friend said he’d make it up to you. You aren’t sure what that means, but it must be something good. Thirty minutes later a car pulls up in the driveway. Someone you don’t know is driving. This person walks over and informs you that your friend has been delayed. “Would you mind holding the rock for just a little while longer?” he asks.
You experience a mixture of pain and anger. You manage to mutter, “Just tell him to hurry.”
Away the person goes and there you stand. It’s dark now. The streets are empty. The neighbors are at their windows watching you stand there, wondering why you’d put up with being treated like that by a “friend.”
Another hour goes by. You begin to lose your grip. Your arms begin to fall. You tell yourself to hold on, but your body just won’t respond. Down goes the rock. And just as it hits the pavement and breaks into a hundred pieces, your friend pulls up in the driveway. He jumps out of the car, runs over with a look of panic on his face, and says, “What happened? Did it slip? Did somebody knock it out of your hands? Did you change your mind?” And as he looks for an explanation as to why you suddenly dropped the rock, you know that it was a long time coming.
Now let me explain what happened in terms that will help us later on. Your mental willingness was overcome by your physical exhaustion. You wanted to do what you were asked to do, but after awhile you just couldn’t do it anymore. Add to that the frustration of being misled about how long you’d have to stand there. But even if the aggravation is put aside, at some point you just weren’t going to be able to keep holding on. No amount of love, dedication, commitment, or selflessness was going to be able to make up for the fact that your arms were worn out.
Now, let’s add another element to that story: You’re about to pass out from exhaustion. And finally a car pulls up in the driveway. You’re so angry and in so much pain you know you’ll have to choose your words carefully. Sure enough, it’s your friend. He walks over slowly with one hand behind his back. He forces a smile and says, “I brought you something.”
Suddenly he brings out from behind his back a bouquet of flowers. At that point you don’t just drop the rock; you find within yourself just enough strength to throw it at him! As he ducks, he exclaims, “What was that all about? I bought you flowers, didn’t I?”
Now, I probably don’t need to apply my little parable. The meaning is pretty obvious. So at the risk of insulting your intelligence, let me be painfully specific:
• When we ask our husbands and wives to carry their load as well as ours, it’s like handing them a rock.
• When we’re absent at critical junctures in family life, they’re left holding the rock.
• When we find ourselves pointing to the future to somehow make up for the past and the present, they’re holding the rock.
• When we assure our families that things are going to change and they don’t, they’re holding the rock.
The interesting thing is that they always accept it. And why not? They love us. They trust us. Besides, we always reassure them that they’ll only have to hold it for a short time.
Everybody is willing to be “understanding” when a loved one needs to neglect the family as a top priority for a reasonable period of time. And in real life, taking time away from the family because of job responsibilities is sometimes unavoidable. But when they’re left to carry a load of neglect they were never created to carry in the first place—it’s just a matter of time before things will begin to unravel.
There’s a point at which that mental willingness isn’t enough to hang on. With a literal rock, mental willingness is eventually overcome by physical exhaustion. With an imaginary rock, mental willingness is eventually overtaken by emotional exhaustion. And when that happens, the rocks come tumbling down.
There’s always a final straw: a comment, a phone call, a tired explanation, a no-show, a forgotten birthday, or a missed game. Some little thing that pushes those we love past their ability to hold on. And to the uniformed, unsuspecting spouse —to the husband or wife who has lived with the fantasy that everything is just fine-it seems like a huge overreaction. They think: ”All I said was.” ”All I did was.”
But it wasn’t the moment. It wasn’t the phone call. It wasn’t the fact that the big hand on the clock was on the six instead of the twelve. It was weeks, months, or possibly years of waiting for things to change. The rock finally slipped out of their calloused hands.
When the rock drops, you’ll do everything in your power to pick it up and piece it back together. You’ll find the time to devote to fixing the problem. But in my experience, when the rock drops, there is always some permanent damage. Most rocks can’t be put back together again.
Do you know what your family wants from you more than anything else? They want to feel accepted. In practical terms, they want to feel like they are your priority.
“But they are my priority,” you might argue. That may be true. They may be your priority in your heart, but that’s not the point. They want to feel like your priority. It’s not enough for them to be your priority. They must feel like it.
I’ll never forget discussing this point with a very busy corporate vice president. He kept assuring me of how much he loved his wife and kids. Finally I interrupted him and said, “The problem is, you love your family in your heart, but you don’t love them in your schedule. They can’t see your heart —they only know your schedule.”
Keep in mind that the chief indicator to your family of where you place your loyalty is time. It’s what you put on our calendar. Where you spend your time is an indication of where your loyalties lie. In effect, you pledge your allegiance to the person or thing that receives your time.
Are there time-consuming bridges you need to burn? Are there accounts at work you need to hand off? Are there some out-of-town meetings that need to be handled on the phone? Is there an offer you need to refuse? A promotion you need to give back? Once you’ve made up your mind to make your family more of a priority, it will become all too clear what stands in the way of your being able to focus on your commitment to re-prioritize.
So what is your non-negotiable? What does it look like? Does it mean leaving the office everyday at 5:30, regardless? Does it mean never missing one of your children’s performances or ball games? What does the commitment look like in your world?
Again promising to do “better” won’t get it. You’ve already done that. That terminology doesn’t even register with your family. They’ve heard that before.
