I finally found out about some of his affairs

[too trusting]

just to put your fears to rest about THIS one - I was divorced at 52 after 26 years together. I've dated five men since. One was 2 years older. All the rest have been younger than me

kml, I am happy for your success, but in this case I think "mmmv".

[too trusting]

Do you see the problem with this picture?

All he cares about is how comfortable HE is.

If he gets uncomfortable, he cheats on you.

If you get uncomfortable, you just have to suck it up?

Come on...

Shelly, I agree in principle, but I can understand that sometimes, if someone is ashamed of their past behavior, they don't want to keep talking about it. I would be willing to give him some leeway on the "talking about the past" if he would be doing other things that allow me to feel more secure.

[kml]

I know nothing about how it applies to other aspects aside from our assets. e.g. he is probably not responsible for my income, since our children are grown, and if so I would have difficulty making ends meet.

In most places, he would have to pay you alimony. In my state, typical was 1/2 the number of years of the marriage - I was married 24 years, and would have gotten 12 years of alimony (I traded away 2 of the years for something else).

The bigger issue is whether his income would suffer with you out of the business, whether you could own part of the business, whether you would have to work with him still, etc.

As for the YMMV comment - just fyi, I'm cute but no Christie Brinkley, youthful but 30 lbs overweight. Doesn't seem to matter to the variety of younger (sometimes MUCH younger) men who have found me sexy and interesting since my divorce. I never would have expected this before my divorce - so don't ASSume.

[shelly_shore]

Shelly, I agree in principle, but I can understand that sometimes, if someone is ashamed of their past behavior, they don't want to keep talking about it. I would be willing to give him some leeway on the "talking about the past" if he would be doing other things that allow me to feel more secure.

Talking is the first test of commitment TT. If he can't even manage that, you can't trust him anymore.

No one is suggesting that he has to keep talking about it forever. There SHOULD be a termination date for questions. He should not be in a dog house forever. But at the moment, he refuses to even step inside of it for a day.

You expect this guy to tough out marital repair when he is so spineless he won't even talk about the damage he's done?

THIS is his proof of commitment. If he can't even talk about what he's done, then he can't be trusted not to repeat it. The talking is how he demonstrates sincere maturity and growth.

At the moment, he's showing NONE.

And yes, there are other things he can do of course, but he's not doing THEM EITHER now IS HE?

Sorry, but he's NOT overwhelming anyone with confidence in any maturity or change on his part here.

And if he's not matured or changed, he's just going to cheat again.

Refusing an offer from an OP to cheat is HARDER than talking about having cheated in the PAST. THIS guy can't even talk about the damage he's done.

What's the chances he's able to fight OFF temptation later when he won't put up a fight to help YOU NOW?

ZERO.

[25yearsmlc]

in my state, (a community property state) w/a 31 year marriage, and w/my h's income a lot higher than mine, I'd get spousal support until if and when I remarried. It'd be nearly half his take home pay, plus in our case, some child support for our youngest still at home.

Child support ends when the youngest leaves. All assets would be divided in half. IN your situation, your H might have to buy you out OR pay you a salary if you kept working there...but I understand why you don't feel alright with that.

Spousal support is not related to having children, (just to child support) but to length of marriage and income disparity. Division of assets acquired during the marriage is pretty easy to compute.

(Only inherited assets and gifts are not part of community property. That applies to you as well, so if your mother leaves you something or if you inherit, please keep those funds separate from marital/community assets)

In California, a marriage longer than 10 years is presumed to be a "long term m" and therefore the chance of permanent spousal support leaps upward to increasingly likely. With Your marital length, it'd be permanent or until you remarry.

(Remember Tom Cruise filed for divorce a month before his 10th anniversary? Nicole Kidman was planning a party for them and she was pregnant too. But I'm sure it was a coincidence on his end... )


Will your standard of living go down? Yes, for both of you. But is it manageable? I'd guess yes.

More later...

[25yearsmlc]

TT,

I want to be clear that I too, support your desire to stay married. I really do.

But I have to ask a question of you.

Is there anything he could do w/OWs, short of living openly w/one of them, (and maybe even then) that would make you file for divorce from him?

IF there is, what would that be?

The other issue you are focussing on, aside from your presumption that you would not have suitors and (sorry, I don't know what mmmv means)
AND that he would be happily surrounded by OWs, indefinitely,

is that you want to KNOW what's going on. My presumption is not in his favor due to his lousy attitude towards you and poor treatment.

I'd LOVE to think it's his guilt/shame, but I fear it's not that...and I think you fear that too. Like I said, there is only ONE way to KNOW and that's to get a film of it. Won't he lie in the face of emails and letters and what most of us would consider damning evidence?

i mean, you have some of it but you seem to need more b/c he SAYS he's being faithful (while also not being kind to you AND being more kind to OWs, which in itself would make me want out)...I gotta be honest. It would kill me to see him being nicer to OWs who've done nothing for him, than to me, the woman who raised his kids and helped him with the business so much...

But even that is not enough to make you want out, so sure you are that HE'LL be happy and you'll have no husband...

so again I have to ask you, what is there that would get you to file or leave?

I think it's nothing, b/c every argument about how badly he treats you or the high liklihood of him cheating again or now, is countered by you saying "divorce won't improve that" and I hear you.

But I wonder how you can be happy feeling so powerless.

Can you?

[kml]

mmmv - my mileage may vary (variant on YMMV, your mileage may vary)

[too trusting]

to both kml and 25mlc - thanks for the encouraging info. we'll see what I hear from the atty tomorrow.

The bigger issue is whether his income would suffer with you out of the business, whether you could own part of the business, whether you would have to work with him still, etc.

Those are good questions, we would need to find a solution. Communicating via secretary or via email?

[too trusting]

Will your standard of living go down? Yes, for both of you. But is it manageable? I'd guess yes.

Yeah, that's another one of the disadvantages of "just" getting a divorce. Even in the best case, splitting up the household tends to double the expenses; and then there are atty fees. I just wonder about *him* being willing to go through with this just to hang onto his candy jar. It would be so much better for everyone (him, me, our kids – even though they’re grown) if he would just behave the way a good spouse is supposed to behave. The way I behave towards him.

Is there anything he could do w/OWs, short of living openly w/one of them, (and maybe even then) that would make you file for divorce from him?

IF there is, what would that be?

I guess – if I knew for sure that he was continuing to see other women, and if my attempt at “After the LRT” did not motivate him to change. (Right now I don't *know* if he is doing it, I just have a bad feeling, based on some very inconclusive evidence – and I might be wrong.)

The other issue you are focussing on... is that you want to KNOW what's going on. My presumption is not in his favor due to his lousy attitude towards you and poor treatment.

I'd LOVE to think it's his guilt/shame, but I fear it's not that...and I think you fear that too.

yep

while not being kind to you AND being more kind to OWs, which in itself would make me want out...

Well, I don’t know for sure if he is currently seeing OWs. So we might be comparing his current grouchiness to how he behaved *in the past*. But I know from the emails that he spoke to them patiently, kindly, romantically; was always willing to listen to what they had to say. Which means - he's capable of doing it.

But he doesn't have that kind of patience with me. Even if I want to talk to him about a neutral topic (not about what he needs to change, but maybe my opinion on something, or things I have done/am doing) he doesn't always have patience to listen to me. Sometimes he does, but not always. Or if I am upset about something/someone else and need encouragement. Sometimes he can be encouraging, but not always.

And I am always there for him if he wants to talk about something, or needs encouragement, or even if he wants to tell me that he is dissatisfied with something I did/am doing. But if I need to talk to him about things that need to be improved, he says I am "criticizing" him and he gets angry at me for even asking. (And how can we fix things if I am not allowed to talk to him about it?) Even though I never talk in an accusatory way, I always do these things tactfully and diplomatically, like "I wish you would…" Or "I feel…" etc.

I gotta be honest. It would kill me to see him being nicer to OWs who've done nothing for him, than to me, the woman who raised his kids and helped him with the business so much...

Yes, and in my first post I quoted what one of them said. It just burns me up. He says that he never told them anything about me and those negative opinions are only their imagination. Yeah, right...

But I wonder how you can be happy feeling so powerless.

Can you?

No.

[kml]

Well, in situations like this, I'm a big fan of the idea that knowledge is power.

- see an attorney to get a reasonable idea of what your financial situation might look like if you divorced.

- if you can't decide if you are being paranoid or if H is really still up to something, pay for a P.I. to find out or find some way to confirm it to your satisfaction (not sure how legal it is, but one person here put a voice-activated recorder in her H's car and was able to hear him talking to OW and making plans to leave wife for her).

- even if you decide to stay, start making financial contingency plans - pay off debts, get needed dental work done, stock away a little emergency cash, make copies of financial documents, etc. Better to be prepared in case H does go off the deep end one day.

- check out the Ultimate Retirement Calculator at financial mentor dot com - the easiest and most complete one I've used, can help you run some scenarios.

- run credit checks to make sure your H isn't doing anything screwy with money, like running up big credit card debts.