Crimson........Winds of change blowing???

[Crimson]

Thanks for the insights, everyone. As always it is appreciated.

I think every now and then I just stop by here and post to get things in my head on paper and hopefully stay off of any cliff that I may or may not be dangling over.

So over the last few days I think I have been in a mini-slump. Just feeling a tad blue about things. I wonder how much of it is real and how much of it is adjusting to my reduction in ADs over the last 2-3 weeks (which I viewed as necessary). Don't get me wrong, I am not immobilized or on the brink of a breakdown or anything like that - I think the best way to put it is that while I am in the pursuit of greater progress I tend to completely take for granted the progress that I have made with my XW over the last several months.

Early last week she suggested that we take another "mini-adventure" like the trip to Flagstaff a few weeks ago. I started planning a camping trip for this weekend and she seemed to be down for it. Well, come Friday or Saturday she said S was acting a little lethargic like he was on the brink of getting sick and fighting something off. She said we should put camping on hold and maybe just do a day trip on Sunday. All in all, when Sat/Sun came around she said that she just felt exhausted and wiped out from the week and needed to recharge. She and S went to visit with her sister - she hadn't seen her in over a month. I was a little bummed and wondered if the whole thing was a way to get out of our plans. I hate it when my mind goes there.

Notwithstanding, when she shared with me the news I simply said "OK". She responded via text "Thank you for listening to me (about being tired) and being flexible" - I said to her "you're welcome....I'm learning". Miraculously, she replied back and said "I'm noticing :)". Not listening to her subtle cues in our past was a big thing for me. Two years ago I probably would have pushed for her to go anyway and let my overall dissatisfaction with her canceling be known. Not through anger or yelling - but by saying nothing and withdrawing. Well, it at least was somewhat validating that she said she notices.

Lately, I have been wondering when the hurt and pain ends - if it ever does. Not for ME, but for her.

When just the two of us went to dinner a week or two ago, she said essentially that

1.) She still thinks I am physically attractive
2.) She knows and sees that REAL change has occurred
3.) She knows that I am a really good father
4.) She knows that I am a good person

When I add that up with her contacting me over a month ago about "I assume you have moved on, but just need to know" and "I need to know if you are still wanting to work on things" I think the overall net of it is good. Hell, we shared a bed with our son a few weeks ago. But then, at the same dinner, she says that she still struggles with having feelings for me that a wife should have and that much of it is about things in the past and things that happened over the course over the D. All things I can't do anything about. So again, does the hurt ever end? Does that wall ever come down? To an outsider looking at my situation HAS it come down at least SOME already relative to where I was?

She said during that dinner "believe me, nothing would make me happier than to wake up one day and know that I just want to come back and be with you and S...I want that....I am just not there". I have a hard time wrapping my brain around that, but I think I understand....I guess I just don't know where "there" is...and if people ever get "there" from where we were. She talked a lot about how this ordeal has brought about her "financial ruin"....and I often wish I could help. So badly I want to say "hey, it does not have to be that way....you don't have to pay rent and other living expenses.....just come home." However, I know that is not the right approach to take.

I must admit that in what I can only label a self induced pity-party I texted her on Sunday and said that if she would prefer that I don't ask that we do things let me know. I know, I know...not a smart thing to do, but I had a really weak moment. She responded by saying that she only takes things one day at a time and that day she was just really tired and needed to recharge. It was an amicable exchange....good communication, well - BETTER than what we used to do.

FYI, on Valentines I dropped by to give S a little present. And yes, I did pick up something for her and a gift from our S for her as well. She was making S a heart-shaped pizza and we all sat and ate together. The next day she said thanks for spoiling us and was very grateful.

Well, I suspect that I am rambling right now. Guess I just needed to "talk" for a bit. Thanks everyone that has helped me along the way. Please keep the advice coming. I have not given up yet...I still hang on to hope.

Regards

Crimson

[25yearsmlc]

"However, when she insists that something was in my heart and intentions - and those things absolutely were not there I feel like I am being dishonest if I nod my head and say "yes...that's what I was feeling/doing"."

C, I think here^^^^is where validation comes into play. It doesn't mean that you are being dishonest just validating what she thought, felt and saw at that time.....If you defend what she says she will become defensive... It's called rolling with resistance. Think of it as mental health martial arts....You are aknowledging what she is saying but not necessarily agreeing. She doesn't need to know that u are not in agreement, just that you hear her. Hope that makes sense.

Like when you don't recall an event at all, or very differently than she does, does not make her "wrong." Believe me, there was an "event" my h recalled very badly and I literally had no recall of it. My oldest child stopped me from calling h a liar (unknowingly on my son's end) b/c he said "Oh I remember that day...." which floored me.

Only with several clues did I recall any of it and to this day I don't know exactly what happened or why I don't recall details but my son more or less validates H's recall. Thank God I didn't blurt out something off base.

So you can say "Wow, that's not how i recall it at all, (or "how I felt, I promise"), but I"m sorry you were hurt. I won't do that again/(or 'will be clearer in the future'.)"

And the more generic reply of "XW, If I had it to do over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently" usually diffuses things.

Neither answer escalates, or admits that you intended something bad,

and both validate.

[25yearsmlc]

Thanks for the insights, everyone. As always it is appreciated.
---
Early last week she suggested that we take another "mini-adventure" like the trip to Flagstaff a few weeks ago. I started planning a camping trip for this weekend and she seemed to be down for it. Well, come Friday or Saturday she said S was acting a little lethargic like he was on the brink of getting sick and fighting something off. She said we should put camping on hold and maybe just do a day trip on Sunday. All in all, when Sat/Sun came around she said that she just felt exhausted and wiped out from the week and needed to recharge. She and S went to visit with her sister - she hadn't seen her in over a month. I was a little bummed and wondered if the whole thing was a way to get out of our plans. I hate it when my mind goes there.

it's not a healthy place to go, so you need to force yourself to stop it. STOP going there....see?? So easy

Notwithstanding, when she shared with me the news I simply said "OK". She responded via text "Thank you for listening to me (about being tired) and being flexible" - I said to her "you're welcome....I'm learning". Miraculously, she replied back and said "I'm noticing :)". Not listening to her subtle cues in our past was a big thing for me.

this ^^ was a huge positive she expressed and noticed...do you get that?


Two years ago I probably would have pushed for her to go anyway and let my overall dissatisfaction with her canceling be known. Not through anger or yelling - but by saying nothing and withdrawing. Well, it at least was somewhat validating that she said she notices.

OMG what do you want Crimson, letters in the sky?

She felt crappy and tired, changed plans and then thanked you for being flexible, to which you said "I'm learning". You didn't make a heroic gesture, you were just being mature. But it was new and she noticed and said THANKS to you. It's not "somewhat validating". It's very validating! Pat yourself on the back. She just did.

Lately, I have been wondering when the hurt and pain ends - if it ever does. Not for ME, but for her.


WHEN SHE LETS IT. I think that requires choice on her end. I really do.

Stopping the creation of new resentments and letting go of old ones takes effort. ONLY SHE can make that effort.

If she wants to let go of the past but cannot, then she needs new tools for it. (I still say she/you or both attend Imago or Essential Experience as a workshop b/c weekly sessions will never get thru. Or Retrovaille)

Plus, if she ever made a breakthrough in a weekly session, she'd then have to go back to s, or her work and it's fragmented progress AT BEST...most mc's re-hash the past, and then letting go is more impossible.

(BTW, Power Of Now went to EE, along with Navy Guy, and Autumn Leaves. Valeska went to Imago, so why not investigate something for YOU and check it out? IF it's cool enough or productive, then SHE can see the value of the workshop in your changes...and might want to take some steps of her own.

Forgiveness is a big theme at EE and I can tell you I let go of A LOT of things from my past when I went.

I just did "team" (i.e., help new participants) last week and am reminded of how much individual personal work it takes to heal in a marriage, or to heal from issues outside the marriage BUT that affect it.

So while you attend it as an individual, (which keeps you from "editing" your reactions, or rehearsing answers, or being inhibited) it tends to improve marriages and often, the spouse of a perticipant will go after they see the changes made in the spouse who went.

I know you have already made changes, but she is far behind where you are, and she thinks it will just land on her.



When just the two of us went to dinner a week or two ago, she said essentially that

1.) She still thinks I am physically attractive
2.) She knows and sees that REAL change has occurred
3.) She knows that I am a really good father
4.) She knows that I am a good person

When I add that up with her contacting me over a month ago about "I assume you have moved on, but just need to know" and "I need to know if you are still wanting to work on things" I think the overall net of it is good. Hell, we shared a bed with our son a few weeks ago.

all true^^


But then, at the same dinner, she says that she still struggles with having feelings for me that a wife should have and that much of it is about things in the past and things that happened over the course over the D.

What is she proposing? Waiting for lightning to strike? Please do not mind read. Have you asked her?


All things I can't do anything about. So again, does the hurt ever end?



yes it can end. Absolutely it can end. There is free will involved.

Does that wall ever come down? To an outsider looking at my situation HAS it come down at least SOME already relative to where I was?

of course it has come down some. You shared a bed, you went on a trip SHE suggested going on.

She said during that dinner "believe me, nothing would make me happier than to wake up one day and know that I just want to come back and be with you and S...I want that....I am just not there".

Again, what does she think will happen if she simply "waits/hopes" to "wake up one day and KNOW that she wants to come back and be w/you and s..."??? IS there anything in her mind that SHE can DO??

I have a hard time wrapping my brain around that, but I think I understand....I guess I just don't know where "there" is...and if people ever get "there" from where we were.

yes they/we can get there.


She talked a lot about how this ordeal has brought about her "financial ruin"....and I often wish I could help. So badly I want to say "hey, it does not have to be that way....you don't have to pay rent and other living expenses.....just come home." However, I know that is not the right approach to take.

I'm glad you know that. I'd have a hard time hearing it, frankly. Does she think you got a bonus for it?


I must admit that in what I can only label a self induced pity-party I texted her on Sunday and said that if she would prefer that I don't ask that we do things let me know. I know, I know...not a smart thing to do, but I had a really weak moment.

we forgive you...and welcome to the human race. We make mistakes. We learn from them. We make changes...


She responded by saying that she only takes things one day at a time and that day she was just really tired and needed to recharge. It was an amicable exchange....good communication, well - BETTER than what we used to do.

FYI, on Valentines I dropped by to give S a little present. And yes, I did pick up something for her and a gift from our S for her as well. She was making S a heart-shaped pizza and we all sat and ate together. The next day she said thanks for spoiling us and was very grateful.

Well, I suspect that I am rambling right now. Guess I just needed to "talk" for a bit. Thanks everyone that has helped me along the way. Please keep the advice coming. I have not given up yet...I still hang on to hope.

Regards

Crimson

I still have hope too. I just think at some point soon, SHE will need to get some tools she does not yet have, to move forward. Wherever or however she does that, or if, is beyond your control...

although supporting her efforts is within your control. Check out the websites for the workshops mentioned above and see if YOU can attend one soon.

THEN take it from there. If you KNOW she'd never go or would not like it, so be it. But what if you get a LOT out of it? Might she go then?

btw, "Essential Experience" also made me a much better mother. So there.

[Crimson]

Hey 25 -

I do remember that advice that you gave me some time ago. Believe me, I say - "there are a lot of things that I would do differently if I had them to do over again" a lot. I am sure that with every R talk, that comes out at least once. I think I have come a long way in terms of laying down defenses during R talks, but sometimes I think it require a certain level of mental "nimbleness" and improvisation that I have yet to achieve. On the bright side, NONE of our R talks have ever escalated since I started DBing....that is a big plus, so I must be doing SOMETHING right.

Another thought that I did not jot down above in my previous post - I am hopeful that my parents shipping out next month (I mentioned they bought a house, right?) will help a bit. On a handful of occasions she has mentioned that them being here does not do a lot in terms of us being able to spend time together. Not that I expect her to MOVE IN, but come by more often would be nice if we could make it work. At times she seems open to it, but then sometimes she seems hurt still.

Anyhooooo

Crimson

[Crimson]

Ya know, I have often thought to myself that nothing short of her own free will would make her want to return and try again despite being hurt. I have learned tht it is choice that you make. However, I can't SAY that to her....and if I CAN please tell me HOW because I am very careful about coming across as a know-it-all.

So many times I want to tell her that a LOT of things happened in the course of this ordeal that really hurt me, made me question her, that burned me to the core and yet I still am trying to forgive and make the most of today and the days in the future. I do that because I CHOOSE to....not because I am superhuman, or because I was never hurt by anything. It's just that the good she and S bring to my life outweighs the bad....it's not even close. There are moments when I think she feels this way, too....but they are fleeting. And then, she retreats. At times I think she is waiting for a bolt of lightening to come out and make it stone easy to feel and come home again. How can I talk to her about that? Can I?

Crimson

[25yearsmlc]

you can ask her what SHE thinks it'd take to get past it.

you can ask her how forgiveness was shown in her childhood, IF it was...or if she thinks there are tools that exist to learn how.

OR you can offer some info about how hurt you were, NOT BECAUSE of HER, per se, but due to the situation.

You wanted to be angry but some "pro m" friends convinced you otherwise...and some of them had to do a lot of forgiveness work even though they never saw it growing up...

or you can ASK her if she thinks "free will plays any part in it"...

FWIW, at one point, I had not decided to forgive my h for a number of reasons. Then I heard a surprise speaker (surprise to me anyhow) at a meeting, and she spoke of forgiveness.

She came from Rwanda, and as you can imagine, her story moved me a lot. It included neighbors slaughtering her family (although once upon a time they got along.)

And they hunted for HER too, but fortunately, others took her in. She hid in a bathroom for 5 months with 4 others from her tribe...in a bathroom. She lost a lot of weight. Down to 65 lbs...

My point, she forgave the folks who killed her family and who wanted to kill her. She spoke so lovingly of God, HIS grace, etc.

Obviously she chose to forgive. That's all I got for ya now.

[Crimson]

Right, but she has said (recently) that she "forgives us". She has said before that she has forgiven me. Do I dare challenge that? Or do I ask what that means to her?

I have often thought that if she really, really had forgiven us or me that trtying to move forward wouldn't be such a rough go.

Additionally, I don't think that there is any validity to saying that you have forgiven someone in one breath and then saying you never want anything to do with them in the next. Is that really forgiveness? Seriously - I don't know. My mother has flat out SAID that about her and xw hasn't said it - but sorta lives it.

To that point, in terms of what I saw with forgiveness as a child in my family - really not a ton. My mother is for sure the type of person to hold a grudge or not let anyone "push her around". Kind of the eye for an eye type....you hurt me and I will try to hurt you back. Perhaps that is seen in my previous posts about her (mom).

[2thepoint]

I have often thought that if she really, really had forgiven us or me that trying to move forward wouldn't be such a rough go.

Crimson - There is this concept known as "trust distinctions" that I think fit well with what you are describing. I learned about this in some business training I attended years ago.

There are 4 types of trust: Competence, Sincerity, Care and Reliability. Of the 4 types, Care is probably the most important for building and maintaining trust that lasts over the long haul.

If your W believes that your concern rests only in your self-interest and that you don’t consider her interest as well, she may trust your competence, sincerity and reliability, but she will likely limit her trust of you only to specific situations.

Conversely, when she believes you hold her interest in mind, she will be more likely to trust you more broadly.

So, I think that while she may have forgiven you, she is still not trusting that you will provided adequate care for her. It will take time. This same concept is mentioned throughout these pages. Demonstrate with time and actions that M to you can be better than before, and maybe you will regain her trust, and with that, a renewed marriage.

Hope this helps!

[lostinscared]

Immaculee Ilibagiza... the Rwandan speaker. Her book was INCREDIBLE and life changing. LOVE THAT.

I believe in forgiveness and agree with everything that is being said here. I just want to offer another angle to this... A lot of what we go through here is traumatic. I've seen before that it is even likened to PTSD. Having suffered from a rape, it is something I am familiar with and I would absolutely agree with that assessment for some people.

I went to group therapy for awhile following my rape. Kept in touch with some of the people I met there. The recovery for some was much faster than others. While I was able to ship off to college 4 months later, others were still unable to function well in their lives. And for some, including me, there were other "issues" that came up that took time to work through. I had a boyfriend that I ended my relationship with. Being with someone was intolerable. After awhile I was able to date, but it was slow and painful. I didn't want it to be that way. I looked at other couples and craved the closeness they had. I just wasn't able to get myself there yet. Eventually I was able to enjoy a nice relationship, but still suffered from nightmares. And finally, the nightmares went away (interestingly, resurfacing after my separation).

My point? Your W has gone through a "traumatic" experience. And it is going to take her awhile to work through that and build trust. And while I believe forgiveness is a part of it, I think there is also a natural progression of "recovery" that she needs to go through. That isn't going to happen all in one day. And it is not going to happen in a straight line. You have to do what is right for you, Crimson. And if it becomes too much for you, then you need to move on. But she needs to work her way through trust, forgiveness and trauma recovery. And it's hard, as you know. I do agree, that some help through some education would help this process enormously, but it is very hard to tell people that.

I do like your progress here. Truly. And I think in addition to the advice given here, I would do some research on PTSD recovery. You will see behaviors and inconsistencies that are so very much like what you describe with your W. Give her some time, some space and a whole lot of patience. But again, so long as you don't lose yourself in the process.

I'm praying for you.

LIS

[Grizz]

Ya know, I have often thought to myself that nothing short of her own free will would make her want to return and try again despite being hurt. I have learned tht it is choice that you make. However, I can't SAY that to her....and if I CAN please tell me HOW because I am very careful about coming across as a know-it-all.

So many times I want to tell her that a LOT of things happened in the course of this ordeal that really hurt me, made me question her, that burned me to the core and yet I still am trying to forgive and make the most of today and the days in the future. I do that because I CHOOSE to....not because I am superhuman, or because I was never hurt by anything. It's just that the good she and S bring to my life outweighs the bad....it's not even close. There are moments when I think she feels this way, too....but they are fleeting. And then, she retreats. At times I think she is waiting for a bolt of lightening to come out and make it stone easy to feel and come home again. How can I talk to her about that? Can I?



Crimson

This really hits home for me. Some of the things that W has said over the past several months have been very hurtful. However, I really like how you stated that you CHOOSE to work on things. That in life with W and kids the good far out weighs the bad.

Reading your sitch it sure seems like alot of progress has been made. I would love to hear my W say that she would like to love me again and work on us. She is definitely not there yet. Congrats on your progress and good luck moving forward.