Piecing - Round 2

[Denver_2010]

Nothing new to report. Just thought I'd start a new thread because my other one was locked. Hope that everyone had a great holiday!

[BC39]

The party was GREAT Cor. I mean really, really good. W put in a tons of work on it and went off perfectly. Everyone had a blast. W had an original painting of my recently deceased dog made for me as my birthday gift. I have to admit that I teared up in front of about 40 people when she gave it to me. It's probably the most thoughtful gift that I have ever received from anyone.

Great to hear man! What a nice way to end the year. Hope your xmas was good. All the best in the new year-I'll be glad to see 2012 in the rear view mirror.

[GH31]

Hey Denver,

Great to hear from you man. That gift sounds tremendous.

Wishing you likewise an awesome 2013.

Cor74, I have to say I felt the same way about 2008. I had never been so glad to put a year behind me as I was with that one.

Best,

GH31

[Carnac]

Denver,
Im back and may owe you a beer soon....needing some advice from a vet

[Denver_2010]

Update... running into some inner turmoil...

Okay, so I've personally had a tough few days. Before I talk about that, I am going to provide an update.

Things have been going extremely well for W and since Christmas. We had a rough month from about Thanksgiving up until Christmas. Since then though, it has been really good.

The W of the owner of the music company that W works for passed away from breast cancer on NY's Eve. W asked me if I would go to the funeral with her and I, of course, said that I would. When we were talking about it, she said, 'you know that what's his face will probably be there'. She was referring to OM. I told her that I figured that he would be and that as long as he stayed away from me that it would be find. She responded by saying that she thought he should stay away from both of us. I agreed.

W told a friend of OM that she was going to the funeral with me. The friend told OM. OM originally indicated that he was going to go also, but we did not see him there. I had planned on ignoring him if I saw him. I made a point to act like I would any other time and not feel like I had to try and avoid anything. I am glad though that he did not show. Unfortunately, I have zero desire to ever see the guy, and am a bit concerned how it might go if I did and he approached me.

W performed at a party at the Hotel Jerome in Aspen. She wasn't going to do it unless the event planner and her boss let me go as a guest. So I got see W sing. Had a good time.

A few nights ago W told me that OM had again emailed her boss whining about him cutting him out of work bc W won't play on any shows that he is on. Her boss forwarded her the email which she forwarded to me. In it, he talked about how W makes x number of dollars being a teacher, x number of dollars per gig, and how her husband (me) makes x number of dollars as an attorney. He said how he is having trouble paying his bills and that he is 'hurt how you (boss) and her (my W) have tossed him to the side'. He called the boss a liar and my W unprofessional.

W talked to her friend (same as above) who is also kind of friends with OM. The friend said that OM was p!ssed off at friend and that he had gone off recently about W and how everyone is against him. W told me that she expressed concern that OM was going off of the rails a bit and was a bit worried for her and our family's safety enough that she asked the friend if that was something that she had to worry about. She said that she is just worried that he might go crazy and get a gun or something. Mostly, I just sat there and listened, but I did make a somewhat unneeded statement when she mentioned the last part... I said that he better have a gun if he comes any where close to us. I believe that W is a bit overly concerned about things like this. She always has been. I'm not too concerned about OM doing anything like what she is concerned about.

I forgot, a couple of nights before that last convo, W told me that my step son had texted OM while ss was in California visiting his dad. W found out about it from the mutual friend. W expressed frustration bc she believed that she had blocked OM's number so that it there could be no communication bw ss and OM. She asked me to check our verizon account to see.

I checked the account and found that all of the parental controls had been erased when we activated a phone that we got for step son on Christmas. I reset the parental controls and again blocked the number.

I went through ss's phone and read the text conversation bw OM and ss. OM told ss that W and I had gotten him fired, that he was having trouble paying his bills, that he couldn't talk to ss bc W and I had threatened to put him in jail if he did (not true at all), he told step son to look him up when he is 18, and told him that he just wants to be left alone. SS responded by saying that it was awful that we had gotten him fired and threatened him with jail. SS agreed not to contact him again.

I told W about what I had read and she was furious that OM had lied to ss. She said that she just wants him out of our life completely.

So the recent stuff with OM which is really only the email to W's boss and the text messages to step son is the first we've heard from him in a few months. It's not a huge deal IMO, but it is annoying that this issue just won't go away completely. I keep thinking that with more time, it will.

So now why I've been struggling...

When I logged onto our verizen account, it was the first time that I had done so in over 2 years. When I originally confronted W about all of the texts and telephone calls with OM, she had changed the password. I never asked for it, but she voluntarily gave it to me a few months ago. I never logged on though bc I had no reason to.

Anyway, when I did this time, to change the parental controls on ss's phone, I apparently had too much time on my hands. I decided to go back and look at W's telephone records from a year ago, and those right around the time that I told W that I wanted a D (about 6 weeks before she finally reversed course and came back). I assigned OM"s phone number with a nickname, 'dumba$$' so that I could easily find it in the records of calls.

When doing this, I told myself that I could handle whatever I found because things are good now. Besides, I told myself, I always assumed that W had not been completely honest during the times when we were hanging out supposedly trying to work towards piecing. I busted a her lying or omitting the truth a few times, but I never really thought that I had caught her every time.

What I found...

1) there were long periods of time where W had told me that she was not having contact with OM bc she was working on us, where she WAS telling the truth. At least according to her phone records.

2) there were times when she did violate the boundary that I had set (no OM if I am in her life, or no me if he is). For example, new year's eve last year. W supposedly was having no contact with OM, but I found at least one telephone call the night of NY's eve when she was at a show. W had called me that night from the stage (she was on a gig) to let me and ss listen to the music as the countdown ended. But she had also called or received a call from OM that night. She supposedly went home after the show (obviously very late) and I did not see her. Well, my mind began to work here and I imagined that she saw OM that night after her show. I have no idea if that is true, but it has bothered me a lot since I looked at these records. The second one that has bothered me is that I saw that she had spoken to OM for about 1 1/2 hours two nights prior to the date when I finally blew a gasket and decided that I was DONE (the next day I asked for a divorce). This was in early May. The reason that this one bothers me now is that, on May 7th, the date that I blew a gasket, W swore to me that she had not been talking with OM. The date of the 1 1/2 hour call was May 5th. I told her I wanted a D on May 8th... why? Bc something was telling me that W was not being honest. Which leads me to #3...

3) That it seems that every single time that I either busted W lying, or that I had a sense that something was wrong, there was contact with OM in the days preceding. In fact, it seems that these were the only times that W was having contact with OM. The NY's Eve telephone call for example... well, it was only 2 weeks later that I busted W lying about having contact with OM by reading texts on ss's cell phone. That led to me cutting off contact and W calling me a bizzilion times while I was on a trip out of the state. On the bright side, it seems that I had a pretty good instinct for some how knowing.

So why is this bothering me when things are so good now? I keep telling myself that I am causing problems bc of things that are history. I could barely talk to my W this last weekend, let alone touch her. On the outside, I told her that I was just upset about some work stuff... on the inside, I was furious with her. Finally, on Sunday, she went off on me. I calmed her down and told her that I knew that I was leaving her in the dark about what is going on with me. But, I told her, I do not want to talk about it. She said that if we don't talk, nothing can be fixed and that I will just eventually go off on her about whatever is bothering me. I reiterated that I do not want to talk about it and that nothing needed to be fixed... that I just need to work through some things. W dropped the topic. I have since been acting as if nothing is wrong. W and I have been getting along since, but there is tension between us. Me, bc of what I am thinking, and W, bc she knows that something is wrong with me.

I do NOT believe that it is a good idea for me to talk to W about what I saw or what I am thinking as a result. First, W would not be happy that I was looking at old phone records of hers. Second, it would be drudging up past stuff which we have both agreed to put behind us. And lastly, bc it will just cause problems when we really have been in a good place. The rational side of me is sure that this isn't worth blowing my M up over... the emotional side is another story.

I am struggling with resentment. Resentment that W could so easily lie to me. So easily choose to risk hurting me like she was. Bc she was so attached to OM emotionally that she could not just move beyond it during those times. It also has me questioning the trust I have put in her now.

For the record, I did go through most of her phone records from the past 7 months (since we began piecing) and it seems that she has had zero contact with OM just like she has said.

It is coincidental that carnac just mentioned resentment in a post and had asked me about it. Like I said Carnac, I obviously do still struggle with it.

I could use some input ... starsky? others?

[Denver_2010]

Damnit... there really needs to be an edit feature here. That last post was written terribly. I hope that it makes sense. I was just writing stream of consciousness I guess.

Not that it matters, but the party that W performed at the Hotel Jerome, that I went with her to, was this past NY's Eve.

[FloydMan]

Denver you are a strong man and a gentleman. The trust will take a long time for sure to come back, but at least she is being open now and letting you see current stuff. As long as she continues to be open and nothing to hide. Those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing. Sounds like she is even soliciting your help to shake him off which is another dynamic in of itself. She is keeping you abreast of the situation. More than most betrayed spouses get. Continue to be strong, this will still take a while but you are doing great. There will be ups and downs. Oddly I am jealous of you right now.

This clown of an OM sounds crazy. This folks is yet another reason that affairs are the worst thing you can do to your family and friends. See how many people are affected inside and outside the family? Family, friends, colleagues, employers, anxiety at a funeral! Look at the collateral damage. Wonder what the dollar number of lost productivity is in the workforce annually due to marriage issues and affairs? I know my work suffered and everyone that posts here on the topic struggles with productivity. Perhaps the government does need to step up and save families and marriages rather than tinker with legislation that helps to break up families and makes it simpler to D or have an affair rather than work on our marriages and families. Or are they too busy having A's of their own? These are stressful and confusing times so we need to get rational about the good of our core family values and protect them. This will make our culture safer and more loving and more productive.
Please for the love of God, do not have an affair if you are considering one or are getting swept up in one. Get help instead! Spread the word! We need to look after ourselves!

[MrBond]

Here's what you need to do. Talk to your W. She's at a place where it seems she would be sympathetic to your feelings. The reason why I say this is because too many times we see WASs here who were the LBS. They reconciled BUT held onto resentment or didn't know how to cope with it. The resentment built up in them like a cancer to the point where they felt justified when they had an A themselves or felt like walking out on their spouse.

Resentment breeds in the dark. Honesty and truth can shine a light on it. You just have to tell her how you FEEL and not place any blame on her. Do the "I FEEL HURT ... WHEN I FOUND OUT ..."

Your W is right. YOU need to open up again and to start trusting her. This is the next stage of Piecing.

[GH31]

G’day Denver,

I just read all of what you had written and must confess I had to heave a huge sigh.

The reason being that I know firsthand exactly what you are going through.

Been there, done that and have the scars.

Regarding your update, all of it is very encouraging. Your wife wants to enlist you as an ally in getting this pile of sh*t OM out of your lives. This is very significant.

Update... running into some inner turmoil...

This is going to happen again. You will experience waves of resentment as a result of what you have been through for a while. It hurts, really it does, but it does fade with time.

When I logged onto our verizen account, it was the first time that I had done so in over 2 years. When I originally confronted W about all of the texts and telephone calls with OM, she had changed the password. I never asked for it, but she voluntarily gave it to me a few months ago.

Again, highly significant that she would give you this.

Anyway, when I did this time, to change the parental controls on ss's phone, I apparently had too much time on my hands.

This kind of stuff will unfortunately get the better of all of us from time to time..

I decided to go back and look at W's telephone records from a year ago

Yep.

When doing this, I told myself that I could handle whatever I found because things are good now. Besides, I told myself, I always assumed that W had not been completely honest during the times when we were hanging out supposedly trying to work towards piecing.

I tell the newcomers this all the time: All Cheaters Lie. You can tell they are lying because their mouths are moving.

If your Mrs. had an OM then she definitely would have lied to you if and when it suited her.

It really cuts to the core, arguably more so than the physical reality of banging an OM, but it is what it is.

Affairs act like a drug in the cheater’s blood.

Cheating wives (or husbands) will lie with every breath in order to keep the H plate and the OM plate spinning.

I busted a her lying or omitting the truth a few times, but I never really thought that I had caught her every time.

See what I mean?

You wouldn’t have caught her every time but so what? It doesn’t matter so much now, even though the anger you likely feel due to the lies is raw.

What I found...

1) there were long periods of time where W had told me that she was not having contact with OM bc she was working on us, where she WAS telling the truth. At least according to her phone records.

Good.

Rule of Thumb: If you’re intuition says she wasn’t lying then it’s probably (no, definitely) right.

The reason that this one bothers me now is that, on May 7th, the date that I blew a gasket, W swore to me that she had not been talking with OM. The date of the 1 1/2 hour call was May 5th. I told her I wanted a D on May 8th... why? Bc something was telling me that W was not being honest. Which leads me to #3...

Your intuition is virtually never wrong.

3) That it seems that every single time that I either busted W lying, or that I had a sense that something was wrong, there was contact with OM in the days preceding.

See?

Read my highlighted bits again.

Do you see why your intuition is never wrong?

Experience.

There is no smoke without fire.

It has been my experience also that if your wife is otherwise well adjusted there is no dishonesty without contact with OM.

In fact, it seems that these were the only times that W was having contact with OM.

See?

On the bright side, it seems that I had a pretty good instinct for some how knowing.

See?

Always trust Old Man Intuition.

So why is this bothering me when things are so good now?

Because the person you love the most in this world, your wife, lied through her teeth to you, tried to deceive you, lead you up the garden path and tried taking you for a total idiot.

So did mine.

Both you and I took a strong stand about being taken for chumps, severed contact with our wives, and we both had our wives come back to us making overtures about wanting to “put things right”.

But you just discovered more lies. And it hurts, even if it took place a while ago now. Even if she is sorry about everything that happened and wants to build a new life together with you.

It’s OK to feel hurt about that.

So, how do you deal with it all now?

I keep telling myself that I am causing problems bc of things that are history.

You haven’t caused any problems yet, but when the past finds its way into the present then you can experience a few problems for sure.

I could barely talk to my W this last weekend, let alone touch her. On the outside, I told her that I was just upset about some work stuff... on the inside, I was furious with her.

There’s no point in you getting dishonest as well.

Finally, on Sunday, she went off on me. I calmed her down and told her that I knew that I was leaving her in the dark about what is going on with me. But, I told her, I do not want to talk about it.

Careful here, that can be hurtful for the other spouse if they’re shut down. Just ask RegretfulLA on her thread.

She said that if we don't talk, nothing can be fixed and that I will just eventually go off on her about whatever is bothering me.

She is right.

I reiterated that I do not want to talk about it and that nothing needed to be fixed...

Nothing needs to be “fixed” but something certainly needs to be expressed and in the right way.

W dropped the topic. I have since been acting as if nothing is wrong.

The problem has not gone away.

W and I have been getting along since, but there is tension between us. Me, bc of what I am thinking, and W, bc she knows that something is wrong with me.

She knows something is afoot which you both need to deal with. You need to be the one to lead.

I do NOT believe that it is a good idea for me to talk to W about what I saw or what I am thinking as a result.

I would disagree.

You need to broach it with her, she wants you to and how you say it will determine the outcome, not necessarily what you say.

If I woke up in Denver’s shoes this is what I would say, when both of you are feeling relatively relaxed:

”W, there’s no easy way to tell you this but I know you’ve noticed I’ve been troubled and you’re anxious for me to share it with you...”

”I logged into the Verizon account the other day to reset SS’s parental controls after they lapse and I ended up looking at phone records from our dark time. I couldn’t help but notice inconsistencies between what you told me back then and what actually took place. As a result I’ve once again got raw feelings of having been deceived. Now, W, I love you very much an am not interested in punishing you for this. It’s a some time ago now. We’ve agreed to put it behind us but I was triggered by what I saw, I’m hurt and that’s just that. I’ll feel better soon and don’t want to say or do something I might regret, hence my reluctance to bring it up.”

“Like I said, I love you W and that’s that.”.

VOICE TONE: Detached, reflective, slower than normal, measured and laid back as if you’re talking about someone else. Imagine that you’re kicking back on a big couch as you’re saying it, as if you’re reminiscing whilst sipping a balloon of cognac and smoking a cigar.

How you do your “start up” in this conversation will determine the outcome. No finger pointing, no accusations, just calmly stating what is.

If I woke up in Denver’s shoes I would spend time mentally rehearsing this conversation and visualise it ending ideally.

You’ll find the words flow far more naturally off your tongue if you do this.

Then I’d get it done.

The rational side of me is sure that this isn't worth blowing my M up over... the emotional side is another story.

Marriage is an emotional as well as a rational experience Denver.

I am struggling with resentment. Resentment that W could so easily lie to me. So easily choose to risk hurting me like she was.

Those waves of resentment are going to keep coming Denver but they’re ephemeral for the most part, especially if your wife is sorry.

And they lessen in severity with time.

For the record, I did go through most of her phone records from the past 7 months (since we began piecing) and it seems that she has had zero contact with OM just like she has said.

I actually think you and Mrs. Denver are doing great. Really great.

Hang in there and keep going. Keep updating here and let us know how you’re travelling.

Best,

GH31

[Starsky309]

Denver,

I agree that you don't want to admit to snooping, but I also think you need to let your wife into your heart, so to speak, and let her know why you're struggling,

Can you maybe say "I'm just struggling with some old triggers" ?? Maybe something like "I will hear a song on the radio that was a hit during the time we were going thru our chit," or "When I drive past thus-and-such a place it triggers me," or maybe blame it on the holidays? I'd suggest some sort of alluding to the triggers about OM, without getting into snooping or sounding overly "needy" about the whole thing.

Not telling her ANYTHING is surely making it worse, as she probably fears something much worse.

Just my two cents.


Starsky