What my IC, along with people here, have helped me understand is that all of life is a process, a continuum, and even if we screw up, that's not the end of the story. We have opportunities to be better and do better.
The most difficult lesson for me has been to stop trying so hard to fix-it (no surprise there)and to, as Mach often says, let it be. And to that I would add, be still.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
I get that this is a hard time for you and your Sons....
What I will say, is that you have had a LOT of time to prepare for those talks. As much as they blow Donkey, you knew that this day was coming, and those questions were coming.
From what I see....
I think it is less that this is happening, and more that you don't think it is right. Correct. Morally proper.
I think that you are fine with the aspect of making yourself happy, yet there is that monkey on your back about "breaking the promise" that you made. And that this isn't supposed to happen when you say your vows.
Questioning whether or not it is morally correct. And I see you stand on that box when you are talking with the boys now. I think that you feel that you will be judged on a 'moral' level from friends, family, etc, because you are divorced.
And that in proper society, that is not what people do. And that you would have been fine with status quo, as long as you stayed..."married". That you feel as though there is something "wrong" with you , because this happened. That you are less of a Woman, because of this. That you were willing to sell yourself, just to stay married...because that is what you were supposed to do.
Another thing that I see in your words, is that you are sorta okay with the idea that this could happen, yet the reality of it happening, has really thrown you.
That the last 18 months have been a failure , because your "goal" wasn't reached. I can tell you that that ^^^ , is stinkin thinkin...
What will be different in the immediate future exactly ? How does this dramatically change things ? The way you have been living?
From what I see, not much will change in your daily life. You haven't exactly been Married for some time now.
Right now...today.....YOU need to start finding some sort of peace through this, so that you can LEAD the boys through this....
What that is, I have no idea, and I don't think that you know that answer either.
What they DON'T need right now though, is to see you in disarray too...
It doesn't make you less of a person, as many struggle to find answers during times like this.
Thanks Mach. Good to help me think this through in a more useful way.
Originally Posted By: mach1
AD
I have been thinking about this for a while...
What is it that upsets you the most about this ?
All of this, not just the past week ???
That's two different questions. I'm in a different place than I started but right now it's 1000% about the kids, not about me.
What upsets me is the most - now, today - is that my kids are not getting the home and family that I wanted for them.
Originally Posted By: mach1
I get that this is a hard time for you and your Sons....
What I will say, is that you have had a LOT of time to prepare for those talks. As much as they blow Donkey, you knew that this day was coming, and those questions were coming.
Every step of the way I've been trying to keep my nose to the grindstone of fixing what I found wrong and broken in myself, of learning that I'm more than a wife, making new friends and developing new hobbies, and trying not to predict or force the future. I have been in denial that H was really going to leave us, and I continue to be in denial that he is leaving us. It just doesn't seem possible. We're going to make the best of it, but I just can't believe it. I can't believe H turned out like this; I can't believe I couldn't fix it (I know, I know, but please bear with me because this is my lizard brain working now). I can't believe I didn't see the warning signs going back to our dating time. I can't believe I wasn't the assertive person I thought I was. I can't believe I didn't know that some guys are really blissfully happy about having kids, I can't believe I was so dense to keep going forward through life knowing he was sleepwalking. I don't ever want to wish anything different happened because I am so glad to have my kids exactly as they are. But how could this have happened...
You cannot prepare enough for this...it would be trying to control the outcome. I am trying to take the hard way through this, and y'all are paying the price by having to listen to me. Would this be better if I were totally prepared, and could tell my boys all the lovely right things about loving someone and setting them free (their DAD!?!) and they wouldn't cry or act hurt or angry because this is so necessary and fine.... um, they pay the price for all that order and ease for me. They need to be free to have whatever emotions they have, whatever opinions they have. I hate it. But I have to let it happen and do what I can to help them pick themselves up and hopefully not repeat the cycle. They can learn emotional skills from the emotional crap sandwich their dad and I gave them. But only if I can make myself BE there with them and use what I know now, and wish I'd known before, to help them.
Originally Posted By: mach1
From what I see....
I think it is less that this is happening, and more that you don't think it is right. Correct. Morally proper.
Nope, I disagree with you here. My pain right now is not about me or what I think about me.
Originally Posted By: mach1
I think that you are fine with the aspect of making yourself happy, yet there is that monkey on your back about "breaking the promise" that you made. And that this isn't supposed to happen when you say your vows.
Questioning whether or not it is morally correct. And I see you stand on that box when you are talking with the boys now. I think that you feel that you will be judged on a 'moral' level from friends, family, etc, because you are divorced.
Not really. Definitely at first. Right now, for me, public opinion doesn't matter a whole lot. I would like people to think I have strong ethics, that I try to leave places better than I found them, that I look for good and that the world is better with me in it. I can live with being divorced, and I'm even getting to be ok with the fact that some people will guess I was the problem. Maybe she's frigid. Maybe she's a lousy housekeeper. Whatever. In my life I have more important and more fun things to do than sweat too much about that. In my heart I gave my all to work on my marriage when I knew it needed work and I fulfilled my vows. Some broken things can't be fixed.
Originally Posted By: mach1
And that in proper society, that is not what people do. And that you would have been fine with status quo, as long as you stayed..."married". That you feel as though there is something "wrong" with you , because this happened. That you are less of a Woman, because of this. That you were willing to sell yourself, just to stay married...because that is what you were supposed to do.
Like I said, once, yes, these thoughts were big in my mind. I haven't seen them in a long while.
BUT: what's right for my kids, what they were entitled to, what's fair, is not what they're getting. I can't help that, I can't fix it, I played a part in getting us where we got and feel bad about that, and I know there are worse fates in life. But this isn't fate and life creating hardship for my kids, it's ME and my H. Yes I feel bad, mad, and sad about that.
I am reading the Unexpected Legacy of Divorce. My psychologist friend recommended it to us to read the day after the bomb. H never opened it. I took it back recently. My friend's parents split up when she was a teen. Her mom had an affair with a neighbor and eventually married him and he is now David...he's been a fixture at family events for the 15 years I've known them. He's a great guy, my friend's mom is a nice lady, they're normal grandparents. And there's my friend's dad's family too, around at the bar mitzvahs and whatnot. Anyway my friend has fought trust issues and relationship issues throughout her marriage, and has many times thought about leaving and making herself happy, life is short, and is a very self-admittedly messed up person, directly as a result of what happened in her family growing up. She said she read the book for work and it was like reading her autobiography. She sent it to her siblings.
It doesn't say divorce is inherently bad or wrong. But it definitely has long term effects on kids, and while the parents are making themselves happier and working on getting a life and rebuilding, the kids' interest falls by the wayside. If they seem ok, and get good grades, they're fine! The book forces you to ask what this means for their ability to form relationships in the future, and how they define themself and their role in relationships, and what kind of relationships they will choose.
This book argues that kids are sometimes better off in an intact family even if the husband and wife aren't happily married, if they can get along. You don't always get to choose that, and I didn't get to. So what you have to do now is get your head out of your a$$ and realize that this is no longer just your problem to learn how to handle. It's the kids' problem, and right now that is more important. My life is half over and it's been really good, and will be even better. My concern right now is all about the kids.
I'm not saying they are automatically permanently damaged from this. But I would have liked them to have the security of two parents at home, and the comfort of knowing if there was anything between us it was between us, and even better if we could have worked things out. What wonderful lessons they could have learned for life about that, about how problems can be solved by working together, about how talking things out is important, and more.
Right now I'm railing at the universe, shaking my fist at the sky in anger because my children are hurting. Yes, they will get better. Yes, they will be ok. Give me a minute to be angry. They are NOT OK RIGHT NOW.
Originally Posted By: mach1
Another thing that I see in your words, is that you are sorta okay with the idea that this could happen, yet the reality of it happening, has really thrown you.
That's true. I keep hoping this is going to change into something we can resolve together. Not that I expect it to, but I stand ready if the opportunity should come up. Keeping that glimmer of hope alive causes pain, I know. I'm ok with pain. What benefit is there in denying that I would love for us to be able to turn this around and grow into a better more mature marriage?
Originally Posted By: mach1
That the last 18 months have been a failure , because your "goal" wasn't reached. I can tell you that that ^^^ , is stinkin thinkin...
It may be. But if H had come to try to work on our marriage before now, we would have saved our kids the awful awful moment when we crushed their understanding of their family. You have to understand that as much as we grieve the loss of the marriage and the future we thought we had, the kids are grieving a loss too. And they don't have as many words for it or as mature of an understanding of what hurts. It should be OK - you're not losing a dad, you're gaining a house! woo hoo. Don't worry, lots of your friends have been through this, it's normal. Um, sorry, but I don't care if EVERY kid had already been through this, it's the only time my kids have been through it. And while they will pick themselves up, again and again, I think they had a right to expect something different in their family. And how do you tell your kids No Expectations they'll hurt you, love and let go, nothing is guaranteed. They had a RIGHT to expect that their parents would work together to create a healthy marriage and a healthy family for them to grow up in. It's cr*p that we couldn't do it. In that sense, yes, I feel like I failed and now we have to deal with the consequences of that.
Originally Posted By: mach1
What will be different in the immediate future exactly ? How does this dramatically change things ? The way you have been living?
From what I see, not much will change in your daily life. You haven't exactly been Married for some time now.
You keep asking about me. My kids are the point right now. They are trying to figure out if their dad doesn't love them anymore, they were not wondering that last week. They are wondering where they're going to live, weren't wondering that last week. We are not going to be able to afford college like before because we're going to be sending that money off to H to live somewhere else.
Are you trying to downplay the dramatic change of that? Why?
If you're trying to make me feel better, you're focusing on the wrong person. You tell my kids nothing is changing.
Originally Posted By: mach1
Right now...today.....YOU need to start finding some sort of peace through this, so that you can LEAD the boys through this....
What that is, I have no idea, and I don't think that you know that answer either.
What they DON'T need right now though, is to see you in disarray too...
Explain to me how I'm in disarray.
Are you saying a few tears in the morning are not OK? That's what got my H where he is in life.
You let me know how I'm in disarray.
Originally Posted By: mach1
It doesn't make you less of a person, as many struggle to find answers during times like this.
So...what is the first step ?
No BS, no saying what you think I want to hear...
Pure emotion, anger, laughter, whatever.....
What bothers you the MOST ????
How's that?
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
When our Son looked at me and asked me the same question as your Son asked you...
I told him that it wasn't about whether or not Mom loved me, and that I couldn't answer that for her. It was about how much we loved her. And that we wanted her to be happy, even if that meant that she lived elsewhere.
That I wanted her to be happy, even if that meant that she had a different life, maybe with someone else, and that I loved her enough to let her go, and find that out. That loving someone through the rough times, makes it easier for loving them during the good times.
And that, is what matters the most...
Is the love that we have for her....
Mach1, I can't tell you how much I appreciate you being here helping me. I learn by challenging, so I hope you'll hang in there.
How old is your S? And did he accept that explanation?
I like what you said up to the point of "I can't answer that for her" and the rest, since I can still remember my teenage mind, sounds like bulls*t. No offense to you, but my s14 would probably have a real problem with me suggesting that he should "love dad enough to let him go be happy." It will probably come for him, but this week, I think that suggestion would be laughable to him if it didn't hurt so much.
I would like to know what your S said, and whether what he said matched what you observed his adjustment to be over time or if he was just agreeing to try to get with the party line and make you feel better.
I would like my kids to be at peace with what is going on, but that is a process that H will have to participate in. The kids have a right to their opinion, and paving spackle over a lion just pisses off the lion.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
As you know I've also had the "move out" debate going on and off. My W's parents divorced when she was in college. My parents separated for about two years when I was in middle school, my dad bought another house and lived there.
My views about what my children should expect and what is owed to them are similar to yours. My parents' separation honestly didn't impact me that much -- I remember my mother telling me I should live with her instead of my father because she loved me more and my father worked all the time, and I remember resenting her for pressuring me. They were yelling at each other nightly before he moved out, and I definitely remember being relieved that the tension in the house had been lifted. The difference, I think, is that I never questioned either parent's commitment to my sister and I.
I will also say that it created a view of marriage for me as something that is of great value and should be cherished. I assumed that because my W's parents' divorce worked her over so hard she felt the same way. When my parents reconciled my father told me that when you divorce, you're not suddenly finding happiness, you're just exchanging one set of problems for another, and you're much better served by trying to work it out. I always remembered that.
I also read "The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce" and have discussed it with many people. My MC had a useful opinion you may be interested in:
MC said that the authors of that book definitely had a Christian pro-marriage agenda, even though they downplayed that in the book. He said that there is no evidence to suggest that divorce, in itself, makes children worse off emotionally or developmentally. Financially yes, but not emotionally. He said that is because there is no way to control for the impact of divorce. You can't study the same kids raised by the same parents in one instance with divorce and in another instance without.
He said that generally in the case of divorce, one of the parties has become "toxic" and has some toxic attitudes and/or behaviors that impact the children, and it is that factor that creates the emotional and developmental problems -- it's the parenting, not the divorce.
He said there are just as many troubled kids in married families as there are in divorced families, just as many emotional issues, etc. because staying married does not make people better parents. He went on to say that the crisis created by divorce can actually trigger change that improves the parenting from one or both parents.
I challenged him on that: "are you saying that divorce is a good thing for kids?"
He said, no but primarily because their financial situation worsens, and because kids crave "fitting in" and the fact that they come from a single parent home can make them feel different which can impact their self-esteem, even if no one else has a problem with it and they don't actually get teased because of it.
I read the book, and that's what MC said, so I figured I would share it. I do feel I side more with the book than with MC, but it's good to know there are other opinions.
I have a good friend who told me his parents had the most amicable divorce possible, they lived on the same street in different houses, continued to be friendly, and continued to spend holidays together, but he said despite the lack of acrimony, it still sucked.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Just to share some of S14's reactions, here are the questions I got the night we told them. He stormed upstairs and then shortly afterward left the house for the night. But he did text me.
H had said to them, we have problems we cannot resolve, and so I am going to move out. We had agreed on that statement. I added that we had tried very hard, but this needed to happen, and we both loved them very much and would do everything we could to keep things as much the same for them as possible.
S14 wrote: Hey mom I can't talk about this in person but what problems is dad talking about
Me: it was problems between dad and me - the important thing for you to know is it is not anything to do with you or s12. We had difficulties with our marriage that we tried very hard to fix. Dad said you came by; I'm home now. I could walk around if you want to try talking or just walkin around
S14: What exactly was dad talking about when he said he couldn't find a solution for
Me: He said we had problems that we just couldn't resolve
S14: Well I think i deserve to know whats going on in my family
Me: You do. It's just that I don't know if i have all the answers. Dad and I have not been able to make each other happy, and i believe it was beginning to affect you kids, not because of you but bc he was just not happy inside himself. over 20 years there became such a tangle of issues that its hard to say it was any one thing, its complicated. I'm not tring to hide stuff from you but trying hopefully to explain things that are confusing even to me, in a way you can understand. You are a very bright and awesome guy.
S14: Mom, is he gay?
Me: S14, i have not ever had any reason to think that's the case and I still don't. He needs to have a best friend just like i have best friends. This is hard for him and me and you guys. We all need to have friends to confide in.
S14: well I just wanna figure out whats going
me: I wish I could make it simple to understand. You will have lots of questions and i will do my best to answer them.
Next morning, I went to pick him up to get ready for school and thanked him for texting because it seemed like a good way we could talk, and I'd talk to him anytime. He asked again, wth is going on with dad.
I told him it was hard for me sometimes to answer because I was feeling a lot of emotions, sad and angry - at h, at myself, at the situation - and I didn't want to say something out of emotions I was trying to process that wasn't exactly right.
I asked him about the gay thing, I understood why he'd ask that but I was curious if that would be extra horrible or embarassing or what. He said not really I guess, I know it happens cause I saw it on tv. I said well you know how his friend is about women right, and he said, yeah he's a total perv. So I said it just seems very unlikely that that's any kind of a gay relationship then huh? (I feel pretty sure that there was talk of this going on over the past few months when I'd have the lacrosse team sleeping over and H would "go out with his friend" and not come home until after most of them had gone home the next day. It was quite awkward and weird, and the kids were making some jokes about the friend. They're so hypersensitive to sexuality at that age, and who's gay and what's gay, that there were likely comments that I wasn't hearing. I think H's gay or not gayness will become a whatever later on. S is just trying to identify what exactly happened and is reaching to understand.
Since then I ask now and then how he's doing, and he's had a day and a half home from school where I'd bring him food and we'd chitchat.
I'm so glad he talks to me, he's never been particularly chatty, more one of those how was school - fine - guys. But I feel like he's opened up some challenging subjects with me this week that has been surprising to me. I sure as heck wouldn't have talked to my parents about these things, I would have stayed in my room and punched holes in the wall.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
Another car conversation with S14 was about how people are happy. It's not about other people "making" you happy or "making" you unhappy. It's about who you are and how you deal with things in life that you don't like. I told him this was a very sad time for me but I was also still a happy person and had things I was glad about and looking forward to. H needs to figure out how he can be happy. I was hoping that S14 would be able to recognize that in himself he has the capacity to be happy in spite of not liking what is going on. I'm hoping I can be a role model for that.
I cry and I feel and I talk and I hurt and I put on Christmas carols and belt them out like a lunatic and that makes me feel better in a while. I also do hot yoga because when everyone sweats that much they can't tell you're actually standing there crying your eyes out. After a while you just stop crying and look around for something fun to do. I really hope S14 can learn that.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
I took one half of a paxil Tuesday because my head was zapping again but I've been mostly off them entirely. I don't think I'm depressed anymore. I think I'm just sad sometimes.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
Accuray, your mc sounds like he was willing to discount the book based on the authors being Christian and pro-marriage. I wonder how his attitude of being anti-promarriageChristian colored his reading of the book.
Because the authors acknowledged how hard it is to control for the variables with real children. And that is why they looked for kids in bad marriages that stayed together and compared them with the kids in bad marriages that broke apart.
And they were careful to use the technique of stories of meta-children to avoid saying anything hard and fast like 87% of kids from this group experienced (and can be expected to experience) thus and such.
I think the book has a lot more merit because of this than your mc gave it, and I question his motives. He seemed like a pretty promarriage counselor. Anyway.
The book made a surprising (to me) comment, backed up by real people over 25 years, that kids in intact bad-marriage families don't have as much of a problem developing healthy future relationships as kids in broken bad-marriage families.
And what you do with that knowledge is not decide whether or not to stay together, but realize when you decide not to, what you are actually doing to your kids longterm. So you can work to counteract it.
I love the message your dad gave you. That's awesome. It's probably why you're such an amazing h.
It's too bad that you made assumptions about your W based on her background, just like I did about my H, that turned out to be incorrect.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
Hello. I was catching up on things with you and your sons. I haven't posted to you before but I am hoping that some of what I have to offer you if valuable in some way.
First off let me tell you how it was all about my kids, only it really wasn't. I think was alot easier for me to be angry for my kids, what they will be missing the damage done to them than for me.
I finally got angry for me and what I found was that I was able to get it out which ler to better self care and better conversations with my D's. I kept the answers to their questions pretty simple. To the "Dad doesn't love you?" question I could honestly answer yes. I also told them that sometimes because of frustration, anger and unhappiness sometimes parents split up. My fault, his fault nobodt's fault. The only ones blameless were my D's.
You ask about downplaying the dramatic change of college and where the kids will live. Have you and your H set up a living arrangement/visitation yet? As far as college, well, how it is financed may have changed, but there are scholarships, grants, loans etc. If the boys are motivated, they will make it happen. you can put on your cheerleading outfit and make sure it does.
If it sounds like I'm Suzzy Sunshine here, I will offer you that I have had some serious issues with one of my daughters. The highend being cutting and suicidal ideations. She actually had a plan in place. Was that because of H? No. It could have happened anyway. I'll never know.
Like everyone here, I get hard with kids. I also think how we take care of ourselves gives them a model for getting out of the tough situations they will confront in life.
You don't have to spackle the lion. The kids grew up in your home. They will have their opinions and are allowed to give voice to those in appropriate ways. You are so instrumental for helping your sons navigate all of this and for their view of what a stong, independent, self reliant woman looks like.
Did you have a choice in this? I can't answer that for you. What I can say for myself is that I chose my actions throughout my M. Once he was "done" did I have a say? did he make it clear how unhappy he was or that he thought we needed help before he walked? No. I do have choices now. Maybe the choices are between things I would like to choose from, but...you can't choose not to choose.
