Sorry for side-tracking the thread, but I appreciate the input.
Originally Posted By: ForeverYoung
So this means you need to buy some more time to give her a chance to change her mind. ANYTHING that can move the date(s) or stall the process and give you more time is good. Are there any practical reasons you can come up with to hold up on the D process?
Maybe. After my last DB Coach session, I decided I would take the rest of the year and make it the very best it can be (and it's pretty damn good). But if we go to court in Jan, I think I will change gears and drop the rope. At that point, I'll have given her 6 months of pretty awesome M to think about. If she still wants out or is confused or just isn't willing to delay the D proceedings, I think I will just cut her loose to go figure it out.
Of course, things can change between now and then so we'll see what happens. But right now it looks more and more like she'll have to go experience life without me to appreciate me.
And with all that said, we still have a pretty expensive home we're trying to unload (which prevents either of us from moving), so if I want to go the delay route, there's certainly good reason.
She was complaining to me that her friend still thought D was a bad idea and was telling W her opinions. She was also telling her how bad it will be on kids, especially D7 and said she's guessing D7 was already suspicious. W said D7 didn't know anything and is fine and we were telling her early next year. She just kept talking about how wrong her friend was.
First, this is exactly what I was talking about above, your W outwardly seems to be interested in working on the M but inwardly she's still done with it. I know it's confusing and upsetting, but stick with your DB'ing and remember it takes a lot of time for this to resolve and you can't do anything to hurry it up.
Second, I agree with FY and BD that this is actually a good thing. The fact that she's willing to open up to you about this is great. It's tough on you to be sure, but at least she feels comfortable talking to you. So by all means vent here, then go back to DB'ing her and acting "as if" everything is fine. Sounds like you're doing this already, so good job!
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Has my W forgotten I'm the one she's wanting to D???
If she thinks you're both on the same page then that's a GOOD thing. I doubt she thinks you want S or D, but she at least thinks you support her enough on it that you're not going to stand in her way. This is good, it takes the pressure off her which is exactly what needs to happen.
Originally Posted By: Breakdown
Whoa...this is exactly where I'm at. Daily, things are great, we hang out, ML, do things as a family. Everything is great....except that court date in Jan. And every time R comes up, it's generally her saying she still wants D.
Sounds eerily similar! My W didn't push for D, but she did push for S and I didn't get in her way. I don't know if you've read the last week of posts in my thread, but I actually pushed for D for this January and W freaked, so I took it back off the table. Anyway, since S we haven't ML at all or even kissed and we barely hug. Things changed a lot for us after the S.
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I think the problem is she made a decision and is sticking with it. She refuses to forgive, refuses to take a chance, to become vunerable, so it keeps her from committing to the M.
My wife even admitted this was the case. She said that it took her so long to come to the decision to leave the M that she just felt like she couldn't go back on that decision. Basically she was so emotionally invested in the decision, it became the only option.
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As I'm reading here, it seems like me, you and AS are all on the same ride...it's just that AS is first, I'm in the middle, and you're at the beginning!
LOL! Yup, good catch. Our W's all have a very similar "low energy" approach to all of this. If my W is any indication, we're all in for a very long ride.
I think the problem is she made a decision and is sticking with it. She refuses to forgive, refuses to take a chance, to become vunerable, so it keeps her from committing to the M.
My wife even admitted this was the case. She said that it took her so long to come to the decision to leave the M that she just felt like she couldn't go back on that decision. Basically she was so emotionally invested in the decision, it became the only option.
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As I'm reading here, it seems like me, you and AS are all on the same ride...it's just that AS is first, I'm in the middle, and you're at the beginning!
LOL! Yup, good catch. Our W's all have a very similar "low energy" approach to all of this. If my W is any indication, we're all in for a very long ride.
Hmmmmmmm it's an interesting, albeit painful quandary you guys have.
In 34 years of marriage, you can bet I thought of walking away many times, but the con side of the ledger always outweighed the pro column.
When women decide to leave a marriage they've already put a lot of thought into it and feel like they've worked hard to keep the marriage together but for some reason (and usually that has to do with the H)it's just not working. We like security, we have a need to make sure our children are safe. So they work out what will happen with the kids, who will get the house, furniture, soup tureen, how the money will work out. It may all be pie in the sky but she feels somewhat secure in her decision.
This means they are in a very different place mentally.
Spartan, it sounds like your W was processing things that were upsetting to her. You were there, so you got to hear it all. I'm not sure listening and validating her world view is the best option at this point.
Putting myself in your W's head, she's trying to convince herself and you, that her decision is a good one. What if you had said: "Your friend brings up some interesting points. Has she been through a D?" or "W, I agree with friend. I think this is going to be very hurtful for D." or "W, I don't agree with you on this so perhaps it's better that we don't discuss it" and go to another room.
You aren't resisting, you aren't arguing, you aren't coercing, you're simply stating a deeply held belief.
Is that going to make her wake up and smell the coffee? Probably not but at least it doesn't turn you into girlfriend/confidante.
Don't give up your fundamental beliefs to DB.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
Well I've been able to not do anything stupid this weekend and actually outwardly was fun yesterday with family even though Friday comments still bothered me. Last night saw W's friend at church and wished her happy B-day and she gave me a hug, W was right there and she didn't say anything to her. I think it bothered my W but I didn't say anything. W and I even watched a movie together last night and made plans to Christmas shop together next weekend. In all honesty though I've been in major depression all weekend. I'm trying my hardest to not do anything needy but I'd be lying if I didn't say I was hurting the last couple days. I think it's mostly still not knowing what to do about cruise, pending Friend of Court date, and me beating myself up for putting me in this position. Old saying of I wish I knew then what I know now is so true. The more I read and learn the more I realize just how screwed up my marriage and I was for a long time.
My W's grandpa died last night, 97 and suffering so wasn't unexpected. I told her I was really sorry and I'd do anything she wanted/ needed me to do. I swear my W is an emotionless robot because she got news and not a tear or really even a change in emotion. I truly feel bad for her because she's never really shown any emotions over anything. Talks about it in past she said it's because she was raised by alcoholics and learned early on to bury emotions. Back to point...We talked a little and we agreed that it would probably be awkward for me to go so I'm not going. I told her it's her day to be with family and I didn't want to interfere with that. Really put an ! on my feelings this weekend though because him and I always got along great and I would have liked to be there but I understand why she doesn't want me there and felt I needed to respect her wishes and not push it. She did say thanks for offering and seemed sincere. Today I've just been really detached and in my own thoughts most of the time.
Originally Posted By: labug
When women decide to leave a marriage they've already put a lot of thought into it and feel like they've worked hard to keep the marriage together but for some reason (and usually that has to do with the H)it's just not working. We like security, we have a need to make sure our children are safe. So they work out what will happen with the kids, who will get the house, furniture, soup tureen, how the money will work out. It may all be pie in the sky but she feels somewhat secure in her decision.
That makes sense but is opposite of what she said in her journal that I read 2 or 3 weeks ago (last and final time I snooped). In there she was trying to convince herself and even said she hoped it wasn't a mistake for kids. Said something to affect that she didn't want to lie anymore and be in fake marriage like her parents. Said she would rather take a chance of being alone since she's never done that but she hoped our kids wouldn't suffer. She even said this verbally to me in one of our initial post filing fights and I said why not take chance on us and lets try to communicate better but she didn't want to spend any energy on that. She even admitted to being a bad wife in her journal and not going all in because she was afraid of being hurt (that really hurt and hurts me now thinking about it again). She said her love tank has been empty for a while and even mentioned her IC saying sometimes it just can't be filled again. I've finished 5LL book and have been working on her LL's but she's resisting as much as possible. I hope some of what I'm doing is getting through but hard to tell. Odd thing is about 2 months ago she had never heard of LL's or love tank until they talked about it in church. She was surprised to hear what my LL's were after that service, sadly at that time I wasn't really sure of hers either...so sad we were together 20 years and didn't know each others. She said she wasn't sure what hers were then either. I'm pretty confident I know hers now. We were planning to watch DVD together since she isn't a big reader and then she filed after incident in my initial post. Last time we talked she admitted to not really having a plan for custody, how she would handle kids, thoughts on money, etc... but that could be just talk. I think she's going through a lot of changes right now with her codependency recovery group and I know I'm the point of most the problems/ blame so probably made sense to get rid of me. Who knows though...
I'm going to just get through today and then get back to the happy, DB me I've been the last several weeks.
Personality is who the world sees, character is who you are
Spartan, it sounds like your W was processing things that were upsetting to her. You were there, so you got to hear it all. I'm not sure listening and validating her world view is the best option at this point.
Putting myself in your W's head, she's trying to convince herself and you, that her decision is a good one. What if you had said: "Your friend brings up some interesting points. Has she been through a D?" or "W, I agree with friend. I think this is going to be very hurtful for D." or "W, I don't agree with you on this so perhaps it's better that we don't discuss it" and go to another room.
You aren't resisting, you aren't arguing, you aren't coercing, you're simply stating a deeply held belief.
Is that going to make her wake up and smell the coffee? Probably not but at least it doesn't turn you into girlfriend/confidante.
Don't give up your fundamental beliefs to DB.
Thanks for posting your point of view on this, labug.
Sure we want our W to know that D is not what we want, but once we make this known we need to back off. I'm pretty sure Spartans W knows where he stands.
Plus, timing here is everything. When Spartans wife was expressing her frustrations over her GF's opinions against D, I can tell you from experience that would have been the worst time to question her feelings or side with GF. No matter how nicely he tried to present it as not resisting, arguing or coercing, that's exactly how it would've been seen by his wife, I believe.
You want to tell W that you think D will hurt the kids? Fine, but don't tell her when she's frustrated that her GF doesn't agree with her on the matter, wait until you both are getting along well and the kids are playing.
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Putting myself in your W's head, she's trying to convince herself and you
Right, and it didn't work. Trying to convince W (with words) also will not work. Let your actions do the talking.
I remember one time early in my sitch when wife was crying, saying "you're not going to give me a D, are you?" I told her clearly that while it was not what I wanted, if it came to it I would give it to her. You know what? It took a lot of pressure off her, just knowing that I was "on her side". That was 8 months ago.
M: A really long time. Crisis: 5 years. She's still worth it.
Life is never made unbearable by circumstances, but only by lack of meaning and purpose. -Viktor Frankl
FY, I think there are times in this process that call for truth, and probably most of those revolve around children, the innocent collateral damage in all this.
I didn't advocate convincing Spartan's W of anything.
If I respond authentically and without rancor, to something my H has said that is counter to a deeply held conviction of mine (of which I have very few) and he gets angry, pissed off, upset---Oh, well.
His feelings are his to deal with and if I'm upset by his response, I guess I would have to look at my expectations. Was I trying to convince him of something or was I simply stating a strong belief?
I am one who would rather be happy than right but I think this goes beyond that.
I wouldn't bring it up at a time when the kids are happily playing because to me that seems manipulative.
Responding to a comment from her seems appropriate. If this didn't involve such and important issue, I would say ignore it.
Others will disagree.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
Less than an hour after I posted my W randomly asked me how long it takes to get a passport so I told her. Both kids came running in right then and dragged me away to wrestle so we never continued talking. My guess is it was for kids because cruise goes to Mexico. After kids went to bed and we got house picked up she asked me if I thought our D7 would like the Barbie cruise ship and said she could buy it for her tomorrow. This is my W's passive way of initiating a conversation. She will never bring up topic that could be hard and expects me to instigate talks. Communication is still an issue (more on that later). In my head I yelled "OF COURSE SHE DOES, she has it on her list and has been saying she wants it to practice for the cruise for last couple weeks, just ask me what you really want". Since cruise has been on my mind and under deadline I said heck with it and said yes she would want it and speaking of cruise... We talked about it and decided to go ahead and go. I made sure to let her be the one to make the final decision and let her know about vacation protection. She did say that 'worst case it will show kids mom and dad can still get along'. I didn't comment to that at all and later tried to take it as a positive. 3 weeks ago we weren't going and would likely have pushed each other off the ship, my guess is 1.5 weeks ago there wouldn't have been a 'worst case' at the beginning but I'm likely reading too much into that.
After that we had small talk and some how got on topic of how my IC was going. Caught me off guard because expected 'real' conversation to be over. I told her I liked new guy and his style (solution based). She asked a few details because I never enjoyed IC before because it was always about past and never got results I was looking for. I didn't want to talk directly about any of my 180s or DBing so broadly told her SB style was and that we were working on my not relying on others to make me happy and my trust issues. She said she noticed I've been happier last couple weeks, especially with kids. She then talked about her IC a little and them working to bring her child out and not be led by her protector (she used other names but that's terms I knew). I was familiar with this from reading 'Courage to Trust' book so I commented a little on it and she seemed surprised I understood. I then told her how my protector always jumps in quickly which hurts my trust. Looking back I wish I would have let her talk more rather then tell her how it worked on me (one of Sandi's 180's on list that I still need help with).
I'm blanking on how we got to this in middle of conversation but somehow D came up and I clarified my comments from 3 weeks ago that I considered our old M dead and gone but that didn't mean I wanted to D her or not eventually work on us. She said "I know that" and the subject quickly changed. If I can remember how we got there I'll post it later but that's the last time I'll mention it. It's been bothering me so now I know she knows where I really stand, 3 weeks ago I was very clear to her the other way in my moments of anger.
A bunch of you guys on here and my IC have mentioned Retrouvaille and I noticed there is one within 20 minutes of our house starting in mid-January. Near end of conversation I brought it up from point of view that it might help our communication and it sounded interesting to me. She said she thought we communicated good about kids. I left that one alone because I know we talk good about kids. I know her head is still not in M or R so no point in telling her reason I want to go is to help us. We talked a little more about the concept and I said I'd e-mail her link, which I did this AM. She said she would take a look at it. Will be interesting to see if she says anything about it but I was surprised she even said she'd look at it. Baby steps...
Last thing of night was I helped her order flowers for funeral and I was a little surprised that she added my name to card. I even told her she didn't have to and she said it was fine, said she knew that her grandpa and I got along good all these years. She said thanks again for offering to go and helping with flowers. I still wish I could go and pay respects but I completely understand why so I won't bring it up again.
All in all it was nice to talk about something other than kids or small talk. I kept reminding myself to have no expectations and thought about you guys, even while we were talking. I'm trying to remember she's still not close to thinking about R, no matter how rose colored the glasses are I sometimes wear.
Personality is who the world sees, character is who you are
It's interesting that in important conversations you have better recall of what you said than what she said. It's a common communication flaw, that people are often so concerned with what they want to say that they're just waiting for a chance to work that in rather than hearing exactly what the other is saying.
I did that too, and have struggled to learn not to do it.
Retrouvaille would be great for learning to hear her better and understand her better.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
I glad to hear the trip is on. Make it all about having FUN together, and NOTHING about the Marriage.
I agree that you seem to be doing as well as can be expected here. These things take time to turn around.
adinva made a great observation regarding your listening skills. Take this to heart.
labug, I agree with your stance, I only question the timing of bringing things up when W is upset/frustrated. Michele teaches us that timing is everything.
M: A really long time. Crisis: 5 years. She's still worth it.
Life is never made unbearable by circumstances, but only by lack of meaning and purpose. -Viktor Frankl
