Piecing - Round 1

[Denver_2010]

Thanks Starsky! Starting to feel a little better. This cold, flu, or whatever, has been a tough one. Hope you are well too!

[afa75]

Hey Denver, as one of my sources of inspiration thought I would catch up with you and your current sich.
I'm happy for where you are, minus the flu.
Oh, and I like the monthly reminder on your phone to keep changes going.

[Denver_2010]

Thanks afa. Sounds like you are doing well too. I do follow your sitch.

[LITB]

The monthly reminder is an awesome idea.

[Sad_but_happy]

Denver,
I have a question. What you're going through is exactly what I couldn't get over.

"I have to admit that I had some jealousy hit me when W was talking to this guy. I got a little irritated and W asked about it later. She asked if I thought that the guy was hitting on her. I told her that he probably was, but that he wasn't doing anything blatantly inappropriate. She was a little irritated with me and told me that I have to understand that music is her business and that she needs to try to make connections. That I have to trust HER... that it doesn't matter if I trust the person who she is talking to."


Always looking over your shoulder. Always wondering what shes thinking. Always slightly insecure about who she wants.


Can you really fully get over it? I ask with the utmost respect because I could not.


And I disagree. You don't HAVE to trust her. She needs to make you feel secure and earn your trust every day. How? She could have called you over and invite you into her conversation. Grab your hand or caress your arm while shes talking to him. Or a simple loving smile from across the room letting you know shes thinking of you.

This is not water under the bridge. She has work to do. VERY HARD WORK. And she needs to be diligent. I don't believe it will work if she continues to EXPECT you to trust her.

Good luck all and Happy Thanksgiving.

It will be my first holiday alone with the kids and I'm excited about it.

[Denver_2010]

Denver,
I have a question. What you're going through is exactly what I couldn't get over.

"I have to admit that I had some jealousy hit me when W was talking to this guy. I got a little irritated and W asked about it later. She asked if I thought that the guy was hitting on her. I told her that he probably was, but that he wasn't doing anything blatantly inappropriate. She was a little irritated with me and told me that I have to understand that music is her business and that she needs to try to make connections. That I have to trust HER... that it doesn't matter if I trust the person who she is talking to."


Always looking over your shoulder. Always wondering what shes thinking. Always slightly insecure about who she wants.


Can you really fully get over it? I ask with the utmost respect because I could not.


And I disagree. You don't HAVE to trust her. She needs to make you feel secure and earn your trust every day. How? She could have called you over and invite you into her conversation. Grab your hand or caress your arm while shes talking to him. Or a simple loving smile from across the room letting you know shes thinking of you.

This is not water under the bridge. She has work to do. VERY HARD WORK. And she needs to be diligent. I don't believe it will work if she continues to EXPECT you to trust her.

Good luck all and Happy Thanksgiving.

It will be my first holiday alone with the kids and I'm excited about it.

I thought long and hard about your post SBH. It's actually an easy question for me to answer, but properly putting my reasoning into words is a struggle.

First, my W didn't actually mean that I HAVE to trust her... she wants me to trust her, just as I want to trust her, just as I want her to trust me... lots of trust issues that we are working through.

What she meant is something that she and I talk about still, that eventually we need to let go of the past and trust the love and commitment that we have for one another NOW. She struggles with it too sometimes. We talked about that just recently when I had an overnight guys' trip.

I think that it is something that a lot of couples struggle with. Especially when one or, as in my W and I's case, both sides have done things to breakdown trust.

My W knows that she is working towards regaining the trust in her that I used to have. She knows very well that I don't trust her 110% like I used to. She knows that these days I will check her cell phone, or that I will ask who she is talking to... she knows. And she rarely complains about it.

However, my trust of her is at about 95% right now.

And that goes to my answer of your question about whether I can ever completely get over what has happened. If I can ever not feel like I am looking over my shoulder.

I said that the answer is easy, but the explanation is not.

The answer? Yes, I can. Most of the time I am already there. I believe time will continue to heal me, us, and that eventually I will be all the way there.

The explanation? Well...

1) I know my W. What happened is not in her nature, wasn't how she was raised, and was not easy for her. I know what happened was not a fleeting moment, or a fleeting feeling. She didn't just happen upon some hot guy and have an affair. It would NOT have happened if things between she and I had not been SO bad. OM is far from being dashing, and my W's feelings for him took hold over a fairly lengthy period of time. But more importantly, at a time when she and I were very, very, far apart. A time when I was not doing what I needed to do as a H.

Quite frankly, I was probably just as susceptible to having an affair during that period of time as she was. She just happened to meet someone who treated her nicely while she and I were living our separate lives. I, on the other hand, spent that time withdrawing from the world. So I wasn't going to meet anyone.

But if I'm honest, I would admit that I was susceptible to what happened with her at that time too.

So, I guess, I kind of get it. I get what happened. We were both miserable. She was lonely. Someone who she knew began to treat her nicely. She began to open up to him. Began to tell him all of the things that I was doing that was hurting her. He began to do the opposite. All the while I was pulling farther away and driving the wedge between us deeper and deeper.

2) I have always been a bit liberal when it comes to the subject of sex. I have never expected my W, or any of my previous girlfriends for that matter, to not be attracted to other people. I know that my W is going to find other people attractive. She's going to meet other interesting people. And I'm sure that, on occasion, she is going to wonder 'what if'. I also know that during the course of this hopefully long life, that I will too. I think that it's human nature. And normal.

That's not to say that I am okay with infidelity though. So again, even though I am a bit liberal about this, and feel that the attraction to it is normal, there has to be commitment and trust.

3) I feel like much of what happened with W was something that she had to go through to grow as a person. Not just OM, but everything that happened during our S. Living on her own. Paying for things on her own. Finding herself. W was fairly young when I met her and she had not ever spent much time really living and surviving on her own. So much of this I attribute to a growing experience. For me as well, actually.

4) How it happened. Although the EA with OM began when W was living here in the house, she made sure that she moved out of our home, and thought that she had made sure that she and I were DONE, before choosing to go down that road with OM. It would have been much different for me, in my head, had she began a PA with OM while living under our roof. I don't know why, but that is big to me mentally.

5) Knowing that OM was more about emotions than sex. Unfortunately for me, LOL, my W does not have a runaway sex drive. I laugh out loud, for the obvious reasons. But knowing that also allows me to better understand what her R with OM was about. And it wasn't the physical part of it that got her there. She's just not the type of person to sleep around. Never has been. The girlfriend that I had for 7 years before W was the complete opposite. I did not trust her at times merely because she had SUCH a high sex drive. So I have a point of comparison I guess.

6) Maybe this one comes back around to number 1. The bottom line is that I really do trust my W. Before all of this happened, I trusted her with this issue more than anyone I had ever met. I trusted her 110%. Would never had thought she was capable of meeting another man. But I dared her to do just that. I dared her with my actions, and, literally, with my words. I took advantage of the trust that she had tried so hard, for so long, to build in me.

So even though I know a lot of people say this, the bottom line is that my W is not someone who cheats. But, as the book "Surviving the Affair" points out, I believe that ALL people are capable of being susceptible to it under the right circumstances. That's what I believe happened with my W and I. It was the perfect storm so to speak. It would have been much, much different if she and I had been happily married at the time. I honestly don't think that I would be able to get over it under those circumstances. Then again, the one thing that I have learned throughout all of this is to never say never.

Anyway, that was a much longer explanation than I intended. Even though I have spent hundreds of hours thinking about this stuff over the past 2 years, it is still just so hard to put into words how I feel about it.

BTW, I believe that you really did ask that question with respect. It was, is, a good question. I'm glad that I had to take the time and do my best to answer it. It made me think.

Denver

[Starsky309]

Denver,
I have a question. What you're going through is exactly what I couldn't get over.

"I have to admit that I had some jealousy hit me when W was talking to this guy. I got a little irritated and W asked about it later. She asked if I thought that the guy was hitting on her. I told her that he probably was, but that he wasn't doing anything blatantly inappropriate. She was a little irritated with me and told me that I have to understand that music is her business and that she needs to try to make connections. That I have to trust HER... that it doesn't matter if I trust the person who she is talking to."


Always looking over your shoulder. Always wondering what shes thinking. Always slightly insecure about who she wants.


Can you really fully get over it? I ask with the utmost respect because I could not.


And I disagree. You don't HAVE to trust her. She needs to make you feel secure and earn your trust every day. How? She could have called you over and invite you into her conversation. Grab your hand or caress your arm while shes talking to him. Or a simple loving smile from across the room letting you know shes thinking of you.

This is not water under the bridge. She has work to do. VERY HARD WORK. And she needs to be diligent. I don't believe it will work if she continues to EXPECT you to trust her.

Good luck all and Happy Thanksgiving.

It will be my first holiday alone with the kids and I'm excited about it.

FTR, Denver, I agree with this. ^^^ All of it.

You BOTH (you and your wife) have work to do to demonstrate that you are trustworthy, in those area(s) of your marriage where you were UNtrustworthy, prior. For your wife, suggestions like the ones that SBH gives above are appropriate and necessary. For you, it will be a different list.

Yes, "Love is a decision," but it's a decision that KEEPS on "deciding" if two people want to reconcile a marriage that has been deeply wounded.


Starsky

[Denver_2010]

Denver,
I have a question. What you're going through is exactly what I couldn't get over.

"I have to admit that I had some jealousy hit me when W was talking to this guy. I got a little irritated and W asked about it later. She asked if I thought that the guy was hitting on her. I told her that he probably was, but that he wasn't doing anything blatantly inappropriate. She was a little irritated with me and told me that I have to understand that music is her business and that she needs to try to make connections. That I have to trust HER... that it doesn't matter if I trust the person who she is talking to."


Always looking over your shoulder. Always wondering what shes thinking. Always slightly insecure about who she wants.


Can you really fully get over it? I ask with the utmost respect because I could not.


And I disagree. You don't HAVE to trust her. She needs to make you feel secure and earn your trust every day. How? She could have called you over and invite you into her conversation. Grab your hand or caress your arm while shes talking to him. Or a simple loving smile from across the room letting you know shes thinking of you.

This is not water under the bridge. She has work to do. VERY HARD WORK. And she needs to be diligent. I don't believe it will work if she continues to EXPECT you to trust her.

Good luck all and Happy Thanksgiving.

It will be my first holiday alone with the kids and I'm excited about it.

FTR, Denver, I agree with this. ^^^ All of it.

You BOTH (you and your wife) have work to do to demonstrate that you are trustworthy, in those area(s) of your marriage where you were UNtrustworthy, prior. For your wife, suggestions like the ones that SBH gives above are appropriate and necessary. For you, it will be a different list.

Yes, "Love is a decision," but it's a decision that KEEPS on "deciding" if two people want to reconcile a marriage that has been deeply wounded.


Starsky

Agreed. And the deeper that I get into 'piecing', the more that I get that. But as I've detailed in past posts, W really is doing what she needs to be doing to work through this. She has been more transparent than I have even asked or demanded. The thing from the other night that SBH was referencing really was nothing. Insecurity on my part that was unwarranted, albeit normal after what I've been through, given the actual circumstances. I can't allow myself to get worked up every time that she has a conversation with another man. And that is all that happened. But like I said, I wasn't feeling well, so I think that I was just a bit out of whack all around.

Otherwise, things are pretty status quo. W and I are still doing really well. Our biggest struggle has been agreeing on how SS should be disciplined. I prefer a stronger, tougher approach, W is more in line with the touchy feely approach. He isn't doing well in school and has had some bouts of defiance over the past couple of weeks. Normal for him in the sense that he usually gets like that for a spell after having a visit with his dad... which, coincidentally, he had two weeks ago.

[Sad_but_happy]

"The thing from the other night that SBH was referencing really was nothing. Insecurity on my part that was unwarranted, albeit normal after what I've been through, given the actual circumstances."


Denver, it's not "nothing". Your insecurity is not unfounded. This is where I fear that healing can not take place.

In a normal situation, where there was no infidelity, I would agree that the incident was "nothing".

But here is what I see as the ground floor honest and harsh reality.

She's not getting it. And you're in denial.

Why?

Because right now, at this stage of the game, she needs to have a HIGHTENED sense of your needs. If she is talking to a man in your presence then she needs to do SOMETHING to SHOW you that YOU are the only man for her. Something small.

How would you have felt if she DID....

* Grab your hand?
* Give you a loving smile?
* Send a fast "I love you" text in the moment?
* Introduced you into the convo?

Would that have relieved your jealousy? I bet you would have felt like a million dollars.


I'm not asking for mushy gushy hanging all over you. I'm saying a simple gesture of acknowledgement that says... "I'm talking to him but it's you I love."

At least for now. In this moment. At this time of your relationship.


Maybe your insecurities are not as deep as mine. Maybe you don't need these things.

BUT...

"I have to admit that I had some jealousy hit me when W was talking to this guy"

And if this is true. Then she needs to read the situation and provide you with SOME TYPE of rope to make you feel secure.

[angel61]

SBH, Starsky,

I agree with Denver here. You are not in his shoes, only he can assess what is big for him or what is not.

I have to ask you this: what does EXPECTING something from the other person mean? (She should have a HEIGHTENED sense of his needs....come on, is it fair to expect that? she is still so busyconcentrating on fixing herself at this point, I am sure! Man, its a process...I know how hard my H struggled, and is still sttruggling)

Doesn't it mean that you are trying to control them and their actions? nd feelings? Thats not what we learn here in DBing... and neither did I learn that in Retro....we learn to control ourselves, how we react, and the premise here is that when you change, everything around you changes.

Had I listened to all of you who have asked me to demand transparency from my H I wouldn't be where I am now. Or had I expected him to act the way I wanted, instead of seeing and reading what HE was offering to me....it would just be the same thing all over again.

I realized that I had to rediscover myself and my H and sometimes, work on blind faith that things will right itself. I firt of all had to right myself and see that part of my problem was being demanding and not giving my H the chance to grow to be himself. I was always the mentor and leader, being older than my H and also being a real mentor to him during his training years, that it was really hard to get out of that role. And if I did as told to do....demand transparency, demand certain ways that he should react to me, like call me...etc, where would that get me? back to square one.

Instead, I held my mouth, although I kept my eyes and ears open. Then slowly, he started doing things on his own. He realized I was worried about the time he was gone, he started calling me and letting me know where he was. I showed him that x-OW was no longer an issue with me, slowly he has started opening up about talking about her and her whereabouts. The trust is slowly building up, without demands from either side. I also realize that he is also observing me, trying to see if I have forgiven and am not hanging his wrongs like the sword of Damocles over his head. There cannot be true healing and going back to what it was and better if there is no forgiveness.

What I am pointing out here is that each sitch has their methods of piecing. The dynamics of their personalities, and relationship, may not work with what you, Starsky, and SBH had experienced.

I think Denver sees the changes, and reads his wife well.

Keep it up, Denver, and don't let other people push you off the path.

Take care.