Hi Nickb, I read your thread and it sounds like you're doing great at taking in advice and implementing it. You're validating like crazy, and not getting too excited about her spew, those are good things. I was struck by a comment that she seemed to be finding you lacking in emotional response, and I wonder if that might be part of the distance that grew between you. If so, it may be important for you to start feeling your feelings more visibly instead of validating hers all the time. It's against db, where you're supposed to always seem positive and happy. But if part of the problem was that you were not emotionally connecting to her, I can see where continuing to be that way might not be the best thing to do.
I've been working hard in my sitch at identifying my feelings and the intensity of them, and learning how to express them in a constructive way. I could be projecting my own stuff onto your sitch, and if it doesn't ring true that's fine. But if it rings true, this might be an opportunity to learn to share emotions more fully and openly than before.
Another thing I can project from my sitch is how demoralizing it is to not be very good at your primary role. My H was blissfully happy when I went away for a week for work - he never missed me, the kids made it to school on time, the house was neater than when I left it, and he was gleeful if you can be gleeful in a negative malicious way about it. It really got me down. I was thinking of that a little bit when I read that you did all the night feedings and you're the one they come to at night, etc. She may be experiencing PPD and feeling less capable, and it's a downer to find out that's ok because your H is so much more capable than you that he's got it all covered.
I think it's very hard for you to be in this situation and not be able to get from her exactly what it is you did wrong (if anything) and what you can do to fix it (if anything). The takeaway I've gotten from divorcebusting is to forget the spouse, and do your own digging. Figure out what you can do better to be a half of an intimate relationship, and get to work.
Even if it's not the things she was mad about, it gives you something to do.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
Just caught up on your sitch. You are getting great advice here. From where I stand this R talk didn't go half as badly as you may think. I think you are doing all the right moves and if your W is getting angrier it's because you are taking away her justification for wanting to leave.
My W also told me that by doing what I'm doing it's making it more difficult for her. I felt like telling her that if it's that difficult to leave maybe she should just reconsider but I didn't.
You are doing great mate. You are showing good DB skills. Keep it up!
Freshman Class of 2012
M-49 W-42 1D-10 T 10 YEARS M 9 YEARS EA/MLC 07/2010 Separation 28/05/2012 PA confirmed 31/07/12 W Asked for D 31/07/12 D on and off the table since then
I think it's very hard for you to be in this situation and not be able to get from her exactly what it is you did wrong (if anything) and what you can do to fix it (if anything). The takeaway I've gotten from divorcebusting is to forget the spouse, and do your own digging. Figure out what you can do better to be a half of an intimate relationship, and get to work.
Golden.
About spew and script, we all say things similarly when we're hurting. Our WAss do it and we the LBSs do it. If you read these threads, you'll see a lot of LBS script. I'm not saying take everything she says to heart, but rather hear her out and think about it. Give her the gift of being heard.
Ask yourself: Where is this coming from? Are there nuggets of truth.
My H "spewed" that I'm controlling. He's right, I was and have to keep those tendencies in check.
He "spewed" that I was always unhappy and critical of him. He had a point, I needed to hear that. I'm much happier today and continue to work on these issues.
He "spewed" that he didn't think I could change-he was wrong.
My point is, don't ignore everything she says as not-important. She may not feel safe in letting out what's really going on and your willingness to hear her without judgment may help to open that up.
Good luck.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
This is a long one. For those that have been following and helping me, please stick with me through this, it has been my most enlightening few hours since this all came to fruition.
Some fairly positive steps from the MC session last night. Please note before reading, when I say positive steps I am referring to the fact that my W is opening up and sharing specific feedback with me in these sessions. I am not reading into the feedback or getting excited that we have broken through any major barriers. I am just happy that we are starting to get some sunlight shining in to help me understand more.
Session usually starts with the MC asking for updates since the last week. Without preplanning or coordinating my W and I have been alternating these opening discussions. I led off and got two sentences in and my W jumps in an takes over the conversation. It was not really a ride interruption but more as if she had been putting thought into the past two weeks and wanted to make some points. I let her go.
It was interesting. After five minutes of summary update from her the MC looks at her and said, “you said more in that five minutes than I have heard in five sessions. He was not referring to the length of time but rather the specific comments and revelations.
I will try to summarize. My W described feeling like she has been on a roller coaster and she has good days and bad days. She said she sees me acting happy and content and is worried that I am getting the impression that everything is fine between us and it is not. She also said she has been trying to add further distance between us so I do not get the wrong impression that she is trying to work on the marriage, but rather herself. Finally she said that right now the M is the Titanic and she is just waiting to see if I jump off or go down with the ship.
Wow. These may be based on feelings and not logic in some cases, but at least she is vocalizing where she is in her mind. The last revelation is that she thinks she needs to seek IC for her anger and resentment towards me. She mentioned that she is surprised herself that it is always simmering and only take very little to set her off and she does not like feeling this angry but it is not changing. She mentioned that while she wants to forgive me for making her feel so neglected over the past 6.5 years that she cannot forget it and this is the root of her angry. She mentioned that she does not “want to punish me or hold a grudge, but she just cannot let go of those feelings.
The bottom line is she gave a lot to the MC to work with in our session and also helped me at least see that for a moment anyway she knows she has some level of anger to deal with. Even if she forgets or changes her mind today, she at least saw it for a moment.
So where does it go from here? MC spent time focusing on each point and asking questions of her and of me occasionally. He has been good about trying to keep things balanced between us or asking for reactions.
He asked me to lead off and describe my present mood which she described as being happy all the time. I discussed that while there is plenty to be confused about in all of this, that my main focus was the kids and trying to provide the space she wanted. I hope I didn’t break DB principals but I also mentioned that while I am able to be positive I still worried about her and about us and struggle with giving her the proper space without adding to the feelings of neglect. ( more on this is this is the first I am hearing about these feelings from her). She turned to me and said I still need space and I need you to have no expectations, but I do need a friend. “when I blow up, I need you to ask why.” “When I say I am having a bad day, I need more space from you.”
I told her I am happy to do these, but I also need more communication in return. ( I usually learn how bad her day is when she does blow up and other than validation, the conversation turn so sour that I try to cut it off. I need to work on this part of she says it will help her. Doesn’t feel like a DB violator if she is asking for it.
We discussed the Titanic comment and she is adamant that right now the only two options she sees is me jumping ship or going down with the ship, but she doesn’t see any M or R possible that does not involve S or D. Again, in these sessions I use less BD’ing so I specific said that while I understand her two options she sees that I still believe in a third which is that we are not on the Titanic at all. I am not quitting on her, the family, or us, and will work to keep giving her the space she desires.
Finally there was a discussion about IC and what that means for W and for us during MC sessions, etc. He also provided her with a few references. She asked for a female counselor and he had several to offer.
Overall a good session with lots to think about. Then as always as we walk out the door the W drops a bomb. She turns to the MC and also says that she thinks at some point we may need to see a mediator too. MC looked puzzled and I asked what she meant. She said that for the S discussions we may need a mediator to help get through the painful decisions. I asked how a mediator would differ from the MC we are doing now and she turns back and says I just don’t think we are being fully honest in here. She added that we will discuss this next time. Boom. I asked what she meant. Said, “don’t worry about that now.”
W: 40 Me: 44 M: 12 years Together: 14 Three children (S-4, D-3, S-1) EA started in April, discovered in 07/12 ILYBNILWY: 07/12 MC Started: 09/12 Patience Tested: 1,245,963 times since 07/12
Just wanted to let you now that I'm following your sitch and I see a lot of similarities between your W and my H. So I know how hard this is for you and I feel for you.
Thank you for this post - the detail gives so much insight into what our WASs are feeling and thinking.
I'm struggling to do much more than read other people's posts at the moment. Not sure why, but after 15 months of this, I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to provide much advice or helpful suggestions to others. Obviously not a good DB-er!
All I can offer is understanding and support, so please know that I understand what you are going through and I feel for you.
BTW - you sound very strong and capable in all of your posts - you are definitely a role model for how to endure the unendurable!
Nick, You have the patience of a saint. Sorry buddy, no advice, I'm no expert. But if I can venture something, maybe others will correct me : have you been a suck? You know, the mr nice guy? You're so analytical, so detached and calculating.. You possibly can't be French or Italian. Maybe what you need is more spontaneity, you know, romance, folly, humour, life... good luck, I'm in a different sitch, but following yours, see if I can learn from others too...
Me:34 ; W:28 Son: almost 2. Married : 14 March 2009 DBomb : 18 June 2012 Separated since Jan 2012 (different countries) Same country and city since July 2012
Lot of similarities between my H and your W as well, Nick. My H's excuse is "life is too short..." (that also makes me laugh btw)
Not 6.5 years, but now at 14 years and counting, next time R talk comes up I am sure the years will hit 16 or 17. Classic talk
It is really good that you realized that W has to have last little word whenever leaving MC. I have a feeling she is saying (as she does keep on saying), don't get any ideas, I am still at the same place I was before.
Keep doing well, being happy. Enjoy your babies. Also, if she brings up that she still feels exactly the same, say I understand and so do I
Hi Nick, my sich started a little sooner than yours, or at least I started posting before you. As many others have said, your W's venom is similar to most of ours. I have to admit you seem much better than myself during this phase. Keep at man! I too am learning from the advice you're getting here. Great stuff.
Sandi, a personal thanks from me to you with all the help you offer as your insight is invaluable.
After reading your whole thread, I find so many similarities between your W and I. You have been asking about her issues with you and the M and want more info for your 180s. I don't know that I have any answers at all, but I can offer you my story and perspective and perhaps some of it applies to your sitch and can give you some clues as to what your W may be going through.
My story is similar to yours - H and I were both very career-oriented. I poured myself into my job, it helped me define my identity, I felt valued, respected and appreciated there. I was very good at it and made a good living as well. Yet it was very stressful and time-consuming and as we both succeeded at our careers, we over-extended ourselves and ended up living parallel lives.
We waited to have children, which added a lot of pressure. My kids are exactly the same age as yours and I am just a year older than your wife. I didn't quit my job after baby #1 and #2 and that just brought more problems. I bought into the idea that I could do it all - successful career w/ 60-hr. work weeks, be a good mom, manage and take care of my home, be a good wife, a good daughter, a good friend. Now I know it's just not possible and it took losing my H to realize it.
My H definitely helped, yet never to the extend that you do with your wife. I did all the night feedings for all three kids, even when I was working full time - he just would not hear them crying at night and never woke up. Yet during the day he would complain that he was tired and would find time for naps. I don't think I've taken more than a handful of naps in the last 5 years... I would come home after work, just had enough time to put the girls to bed (while feeling guilty about not spending enough time with them) and then had to help clean the house or try to make dinner and try to spend some time with H just to find him asleep on the couch.
He was also always lucky to have relatively low-stress jobs, 40-hr. work weeks and a lot of free time in the evenings. He did help keep the house clean, he was attentive and loving with the girls and he helped take care of all the bills. I know that he had his own set of pressures to deal with, but I was just too overwhelmed to put myself in his shoes.
I became unhappy, very angry and resentful at him for not understanding what I was going through. I was always exhausted and sex also became an issue as I was initially just too tired and later, too resentful to even enjoy it. I also believe now that there was probably PPD even as early as with my first child, but I just pushed it down and buried it like the rest of my hurt and never did anything about it. Just now I am taking steps to deal with it, since I know I am definitely depressed.
My problem was that instead of expressing my issues in a healthy manner, I just hid all my hurt and frustrations behind my anger and resentment. Neither H nor I had any good conflict resolution skills. I would tell him that I felt trapped, neglected, unappreciated and that I was just a working mule for him.
He would complain about my anger as the underlying reason for all our problems and he did so in very accusatory terms because he was also so unhappy and frustrated. I never felt like he took any action to address my complains, to make me feel valued AS A WIFE. I needed to feel like more than just a paycheck and a mom and his lack or awareness and / or inaction made me feel even more resentful. So the vicious circle continued until he finally exploded and left.
Like your wife, I also decided to quit my job and stay at home with the kids, but I didn't do so until my H left. And while I do not regret this decision, it has been very, very hard for many reasons. I still feel like my efforts are unappreciated - my H did not like losing my 6-figure income, I miss the respect and validation that I found at work and the sense of accomplishment; I miss interacting with adults and I miss the mental challenges and stimulation that my career provided.
I obviously also had my sense of identity deeply associated with my career, and when I became a SAHM, I lost that. I questioned who I was and what my value is. I rationally know that my job at home is very, very important (specially in my situation being a single mom now), yet, the lack of validation and appreciation by my partner is devastating and I live it daily. In addition, the amount of work and energy demands from 3 kids under the age of 5 can be all-consuming and debilitating, (specially if you don't have a partner to share the workload with). You can ask any SAHM - doing this every day, all day - it just takes its toll.
Perhaps your wife has also been harboring similar feelings and has not dealt with them properly. It sounds like she lacks good communication skills to express her needs and she has been bottling everything inside until she found an outlet in her EA.
I can understand how she thinks there is no hope for change - I at times also felt like we were trapped with no way out and my H clearly felt the same. I think you are in a tricky situation because your W will need to feel like you care and appreciate her as your Wife to believe that your M could be better, yet at this time she is not receptive to you at all.
I am sorry for the long post - it was both hard and therapeutic to write this and I hope that it can bring some insight as to what your W may be feeling or thinking.
I think you are doing a great job with the DB principles and have been very patient considering your wife's anger. Hang in there - this will take a while and know that you are not alone.
Me & H: 44 D7, D6, S3 Together: 20y, M: 17y EA: 11/13/10, Sep: 12/23/10 EA becomes PA: Spring 2011 H filed for D: 09/06/12 D Negotiating began 2/15 OW seemingly gone on 3/15 Still negotiating D
