The Lure of the Siren

[Soul.Searching]

Wow, They sound like some great 180's If nothing else you will be such a better person for it and I'm sure your D8 will appreciate it more than you will ever know. Having someone constantly so angry over such small things can be sooo physically and mentally draining.

As for your question. I battled with that one too but I'm done. I'm living for me and my Children now. If she loves you enough, I'm sure she would ask you. Had you not found this site and you seen your W change like that, Would you not have still asked or tried?

Keep it up, Your doing great!!

[tpc1977]

Arsene,

Great journal! I'm almost envious because your W seems clearly interested. And that's awesome.

My W (as far as I can tell) has no interest. She moved in with OM and living the high-life. She loves him and he has more to offer than I do. Our marriage was full of financial destruction and brokenness. There are many reasons she would not want to be back in my life. So I've been trying to make my life without her better - for my kids (when I'm with them) and myself.

But, I wonder the same things about my W. I have done a lot of changing and actually accepted Christ back into my life. We have to remember though, it's that peculiar attraction which gets them. They may see us in a different light and wonder whether or not they could handle the 'new' us or if they are even good enough for us. But I believe it's what draws them to us. Especially the more they are around us.

It's the strength we show through the changes. There's a courage that comes with it. It's valiant. Women, I believe, still have this romantic view of the so-called 'Knight in shining armor' who comes to rescue them. Which in most of our cases is not in the physical realm, but in the emotional.

Continue to show your valiant efforts with the drastic changes you have made. This produces a huge attraction. Do everything possible to make them stick. Let it take all the time it needs. One drastic, out of the place move could scare her away.

[25yearsmlc]

Now just a bit of journaling.

I've been conducting a little experiment for the last few weeks. Since my W occasionally uses my computer when she is here. This is with my permission usually but also at times when I'm not there. I haven't said anything because it is the family computer and she could be on it with D8 as well. What I've done is I have visited sites on advice for Divorce (Should I get a divorce, How do I know if divorce is right for us, etc...)as well as websites that give the truth about divorce through surveys which show that in most cases, it doesn't bring happiness and sticking it out is much better for the kids. I used to erase this stuff from the history so that W wouldn't see or know what I was up to but lately, I've been leaving it all in the history, I guess to see if it gets noticed.

Yesterday afternoon, W texted me to ask if she could stay overnight. We'd talked about it the day before and I had already said it would be fine but I didn't mention that and just said it was no problems. I see it as W trying really hard to make sure she respects my request on this, which is good.

I got home after work and W and D8 were out cycling so I got myself ready. I'd planned to go out but I wanted to see D8 before leaving. D8 told me that when she is out with W, W often tells her that they have to come home because daddy will be angry. D8 says that she constantly tells W that daddy doesn't get angry anymore and she doesn't understand why W doesn't believe her. Anyway, since then I make a point not to even sound slightly cross, no matter what time they get home.

this is called doing a 180 AND not fueling her negative images of you and reasons for leaving. I get it and think in general it's A MAJOR GOAL....

But it does not mean you can't learn to navigate better, without anger, so that you can anticipate a time of arrival. Someday their arrival time might matter more than merely just b/c you like to know when. What if you have plans?

Down the road when you are more detached, you might have "plans" to attend to, so then you LEAVE when she's really too late...so w has to stay with d or make arrangements b/c you can no longer take d with you, for instance.

When I dated a guy, if he was more than say, 15 min late without calling, I'd go out...sounds silly or punitive perhaps. But I was young and could not stand to wonder if I was being stood up, or made to feel as if I was "waiting". My boyfriends were rarely late.

Still, it's crucial you not come across as angry b/c of your history and how your d sees you. The lesson that "a man can change" is something SO valuable, which you are teaching your d.

That's gold, Arsene.


I put on my upbeat PMA and decided to wait patiently. Besides, I also wanted W to see me leave, all dressed up.

W and D8 got home and we had a pleasant few minutes. W then asked if I was leaving and I told her I was, without volunteering where or with whom and I left.

I really didn't do much. I just met a former colleague for a few drinks and was back home at around 11 pm, after everyone was in bed. At around 10 pm, while I was out, I noticed I'd received a text from W at 9 pm, about our "immigration date" in the morning, in which she tells me to "Have a nice evening" and "Good night". There really was no reasons to text me about the "immigration date" in the evening as we were to have breakfast together in the morning anyway. As I only noticed the text later I didn't bother answering it. Besides, it didn't require a reply other than possibly me wishing her good night back.

When I got home, everyone was in bed and I noticed that someone had been on the computer. I checked the history and Lo and behold, someone had looked at a few divorce pages a bit before 9 pm.

In the morning, all was pleasant but with minimum talk, and W took D8 to school. I then picked her up at her home a few hours later to go to immigration. As far as I know, this was a nearly perfect DB day. I was pleasant and cheerful but distant. We smiled at each other when I got there and I didn't start any chit-chat, but simply waited for her to get on the bike. I guess that worried her as she asked me if I was ok, to which I simply replied, yes while continuing to smile. Not a word was exchanged during the ride there (30 minutes in traffic)which is not unusual while riding a motorcycle in the heavy traffic, however, we usually have some brief exchanges/comments on any given ride.

While parking the bike, I hit the finger which I had hurt a few weeks back in my accident and felt a surge of pain. W was so worried that the finger might be broken since it hadn't healed yet and even said I should get it X-rayed and she would pay for it if i needed. I simply thanked her and assured her I was fine. Quite a change from the day of the accident when she appeared so cold and uncaring.

At immigration, we were told that the paper we were to collect still weren't ready and that we'd have to wait. This would usually have sent me off in anger but, lately I've been good at showing patience and even a certain acceptance in the face of what used to really upset me. The place was full and we had to stand (another thing that used to annoy me) so i did and I didn't initiate any talk with W. She on the other hand, went on about how inefficient this all was. I validated her feeling but didn't contribute to her rants. I simply busied myself, looking around, appearing not to mind the wait.

Based on your history, my guess is she was "ranting" on your behalf, (and reading your mind??) so you "validating her", is hilariously ironic to me. You could be honest next time and say "I know I USED to screw my head in the ceiling about this stuff, but I finally realized, life's too short", or something like that.

I guess, "Validating" what she's saying when she thinks it's your belief, is a little weird to me. Just wondering if being open about something that's not R related, isn't a tad more productive and honest and...real...




W eventually found a seat and she went to take it. I didn't move to follow her as there was only one free seat anyway. I casually leaned on a wall and went on my phone to change some settings, and perhaps to look like I was receiving and sending texts (an unusual thing as I never really got calls or texts in the past). We were eventually told that the paper would not be ready today, which I took with a smile and my new-found acceptance.

While retrieving the motorcycle from the parking lot, an old lady came over to ask for change. I used to always find reasons not to give and one of my 180s was to work on my greed issues and try to become more generous so as of the last 5 months or so, I always give without thinking, not spare change but usually a bill. I read something about acting on your first thought because once you start to think about it, you end up justifying not giving anything. That is what I had been doing all my life so now I just automatically reach in my wallet for a bill, which I did now for the first time in front of W, to her surprise I must say.

it's a great 180 if you can afford it.


W then had to go to some government office for D8's school so she asked me if I would take her and I did (it's for our D8). The traffic was really bad on the way there but I was always very calm, and I didn't even acknowledge it when someone almost hit us. This is the type of situation which used to drive me up the wall and get me into one of my anger fits. But now, W is the one who actually said something, while I stayed quiet.

Again, very little conversation on the ride there. She asked me to stay outside to make things easier (sometimes the presence of a foreigner makes the process more difficult as civil servants expect a bribe for doing their jobs), which I did, very patiently.

After 30 minutes she came back to a very relaxed me, quietly sitting on a bench smiling at nature and texting on my phone. This from a man who used to be so impatient that after 15 minutes he would have called her to ask what the problem was.

Glad you don't do that^^ anymore...never speeds things up, does it?

Once that was out of the way, I simply drove her home and left after thanking her for her help.

It didn't feel bad as I was always pleasant and answered her direct questions in my usual manner. The only difference is that I left the ball in her court at all time, and I only offered slightly more than the minimum, as to not appear rude.

I feel like I'm playing a bit of a game and that is something which I don't usually like but in trying to act "as if", right now it's what I need to do. Once my network has expanded and I do get texts and calls more often, I won't need to make believe that I have a life.

Now, just one question before I end this post. My W used to be the kind of woman who would sacrifice herself to please others or to make sure others are happy. This is probably what led to the present sitch.

What if, in her mind, she thinks that I'm moving on and that I'm happy and decides that even if she would like to come back, she should just let me go on and be happy in my new life. I know she probably feels guilty and even she might get the idea that she's not good enough for me anymore after the harm she's caused me.

Two things. First,
This^^^ is a lie a lot of LBSers tell themselves to justify more pursuit. But it's still a lie. Or do You think BECAUSE she's a pleaser, she'd return? Wouldn't that have worked by now? She knows how you feel.

Second, NO she does NOT think she's not good enough for you. She doesn't even believe your changes yet...what are you telling yourself here? Whatever guilt she feels may be real but it's NOT the same as believing you're too good for her. More like she regrets leaving her d behind and since MAYBE you've changed, she'll reconsider...LATER ON...don't hold your breath but if things are changing in her, to me, that would be why, so your analysis is flawed there for sure.

Finally,
Consider Your choices...They are to show her your pain and loneliness, which is NOT attractive, NOT DBing and NOT successful in getting reconciled.

I can't think of A single WAW who returned b/c her h fell apart needing her and clinging...

OR you can show her a man who can make it on his own, who brings something to the table, knows his value, has a life, has friends b/c he IS a good friend, etc. In short,

A man that only a fool would leave, is NOT a miserable man.

He does not pretend that showing her a desparate lonely person "proves" his love for her. Your misery is not an index of love for her.

It only shows weakness and need. It's a turn off.

Stay strong. Remember faithisbelieving ("FIB") had a motto. I THINK he shared it with others and Denver may have picked up on it.

Strength and honor. Live by it, and you won't go wrong.

[Arsene]

Wow, They sound like some great 180's If nothing else you will be such a better person for it and I'm sure your D8 will appreciate it more than you will ever know. Having someone constantly so angry over such small things can be sooo physically and mentally draining.

Yeah, I've been working at this for about 5 months now. Meditation helps a lot but the main thing is to be aware.

Unfortunately, although she noticed the changes, W doesn't WANT to believe in them. I think they just don't match with her plans right now. She really wants to be DONE. After all, it was probably hard to leave. In fact she had to do it by email while I was in another country. That's ok though. I've got time on my side and I'm also learning to be patient. As yo said, I'll be(am) a much better person no matter what.

Thanks SS

[Arsene]

Arsene,

Great journal! I'm almost envious because your W seems clearly interested. And that's awesome.

My W (as far as I can tell) has no interest. She moved in with OM and living the high-life. She loves him and he has more to offer than I do. Our marriage was full of financial destruction and brokenness. There are many reasons she would not want to be back in my life. So I've been trying to make my life without her better - for my kids (when I'm with them) and myself.

But, I wonder the same things about my W. I have done a lot of changing and actually accepted Christ back into my life. We have to remember though, it's that peculiar attraction which gets them. They may see us in a different light and wonder whether or not they could handle the 'new' us or if they are even good enough for us. But I believe it's what draws them to us. Especially the more they are around us.

It's the strength we show through the changes. There's a courage that comes with it. It's valiant. Women, I believe, still have this romantic view of the so-called 'Knight in shining armor' who comes to rescue them. Which in most of our cases is not in the physical realm, but in the emotional.

Continue to show your valiant efforts with the drastic changes you have made. This produces a huge attraction. Do everything possible to make them stick. Let it take all the time it needs. One drastic, out of the place move could scare her away.

Thanks TPC,

It's strange to hear that someone might be envious of my sitch but I guess I am grateful that we are back on talking terms and that we can have great interactions at times. I know it's much tougher on others around here. I've had a read at your thread and it seems unbelievable how fast things deteriorated to where they are today.

One thing I've been told around here and that has somehow helped me is that you are not in competition with OM. You are in competition with your old self and that is the real challenge because when your W sees you, it's the old you she sees, no matter who you are today. You have to strive to change your old pattern and be consistent, perhaps for a long time before he changes are believed.

Heck my W has actually acknowledged many of my changes and has noticed how differently D8 interacts with me but she still refuses to believe in them. Or she's no ready or willing to right now.

I'll keep what you say in mind and try to at least show valiance and courage because I sure don't feel it most days. I know what you mean though and knowing that I'm doing the right thing works miracles on my PMA and on my self-respect.

Thanks for your time mate.

[Arsene]

this is called doing a 180 AND not fueling her negative images of you and reasons for leaving. I get it and think in general it's A MAJOR GOAL....

But it does not mean you can't learn to navigate better, without anger, so that you can anticipate a time of arrival. Someday their arrival time might matter more than merely just b/c you like to know when. What if you have plans?

Down the road when you are more detached, you might have "plans" to attend to, so then you LEAVE when she's really too late...so w has to stay with d or make arrangements b/c you can no longer take d with you, for instance.

When I dated a guy, if he was more than say, 15 min late without calling, I'd go out...sounds silly or punitive perhaps. But I was young and could not stand to wonder if I was being stood up, or made to feel as if I was "waiting". My boyfriends were rarely late.

Still, it's crucial you not come across as angry b/c of your history and how your d sees you. The lesson that "a man can change" is something SO valuable, which you are teaching your d.

That's gold, Arsene.

Yeah, I get what you're saying but the thing is in this country, people are very liberal with schedules and it's not unusual for people to be as much as an hour late. It used to drive me up the walls and I often lost it because of this so another 180 was to work on my patience so I don't really have to put it on so much anymore. I have managed to relax my expectations when it comes to schedules and to keep cool when things don't go according to the schedule. When in Rome...

Based on your history, my guess is she was "ranting" on your behalf, (and reading your mind??) so you "validating her", is hilariously ironic to me. You could be honest next time and say "I know I USED to screw my head in the ceiling about this stuff, but I finally realized, life's too short", or something like that.

I guess, "Validating" what she's saying when she thinks it's your belief, is a little weird to me. Just wondering if being open about something that's not R related, isn't a tad more productive and honest and...real...

I understand what you mean. I've had to deal with this many times since I got back here. Sometimes I think she is turning in the old me. Many things which she says or does now, are the very same things she blamed me for. I somehow don't think I needed to point it out. My action spoke louder than any word I could have spoken there. It's sure to re-occur so I might just mention it the next time.

it's a great 180 if you can afford it.

A bill around here is worth as little as .10 cents. I gave the lady the equivalent of .50 cents, which is about 20 times more than what they usually get. I'm not rich but I've realised lately that I still have a lot more than the average person around here and over the last 5 months that I've been working on this 180, I can't say I've missed the money at all. For some reason, what you give comes back to you. I was very fortunate to find the few jobs I have now which are more than sufficient to provide for my D8 at least properly, if not luxuriously.

after 15 minutes he would have called her to ask what the problem was.


Glad you don't do that^^ anymore...never speeds things up, does it?

Thanks to DB, 180s, and the fine people around here who helped me figure myself out.

What if, in her mind, she thinks that I'm moving on and that I'm happy and decides that even if she would like to come back, she should just let me go on and be happy in my new life. I know she probably feels guilty and even she might get the idea that she's not good enough for me anymore after the harm she's caused me.


Two things. First,
This^^^ is a lie a lot of LBSers tell themselves to justify more pursuit. But it's still a lie. Or do You think BECAUSE she's a pleaser, she'd return? Wouldn't that have worked by now? She knows how you feel.

Second, NO she does NOT think she's not good enough for you. She doesn't even believe your changes yet...what are you telling yourself here? Whatever guilt she feels may be real but it's NOT the same as believing you're too good for her. More like she regrets leaving her d behind and since MAYBE you've changed, she'll reconsider...LATER ON...don't hold your breath but if things are changing in her, to me, that would be why, so your analysis is flawed there for sure.

Finally,
Consider Your choices...They are to show her your pain and loneliness, which is NOT attractive, NOT DBing and NOT successful in getting reconciled.

I can't think of A single WAW who returned b/c her h fell apart needing her and clinging...

OR you can show her a man who can make it on his own, who brings something to the table, knows his value, has a life, has friends b/c he IS a good friend, etc. In short,

A man that only a fool would leave, is NOT a miserable man.

He does not pretend that showing her a desparate lonely person "proves" his love for her. Your misery is not an index of love for her.

It only shows weakness and need. It's a turn off.

Stay strong. Remember faithisbelieving ("FIB") had a motto. I THINK he shared it with others and Denver may have picked up on it.

Strength and honor. Live by it, and you won't go wrong.

Thanks 25. You are probably right. I'm terrible at reading people and a lot of what I'm doing now seems very "wrong". It feels like I'm sabotaging myself by refusing to be her friend and be there for her. I've noticed that although I've been saying that I follow LRT to a T, I've been way too available and I haven't been the one ending the conversation all the time. If we do get into another conversation, I'll make a point to be there for her for a bit and then find a reason to end it.

I know what you're saying about not showing her a weak, sad, pleading man. I managed to get over of that one a while ago. I also believe that showing strength is better no matter what. I'm just not sure what to expect out of this right now.

[Arsene]

I wish I could be consistently strong. Woke up this morning with W on my mind and a huge knot in my stomach. W sent a text at 2 am saying she wants to cancel immigration this morning, which might cause some problems for my visa. Even my D8 said last night that W was behaving like a teenager, sleeping on the floor and staying out til late with her friends and just doing what she wanted, when she wanted. I wish W could hear her D8 talk like that about her. What would she think? Probably that i put these idea in her head and blame me for it. Sigh... I hate feeling this way. Got to get my PMA back.

[tori2012]

Arsene, I'm sorry about your feeling like this...I can completely relate to it. Feelings come in cycles, some longer than others.

I was thinking about what tpc1977 said, and it's true. Us, women, are romantic (most of the time) so we are attracted to a man who fulfills our romantic ideals. In your sitch, this might translate into being the best you can be, patient, thoughtful, self-assured, creative (fun) and kind. You know your W better--what attracted her to you in the first place?

Good luck with the visa...

[AlkalineThoughts]

Hey Arsene...

PMA is a tough and fickle thing sometimes... I know I'm struggling with it MIGHTILY over the last few days.

And being consistently strong... Well, I'm right there with you... tossing pennies into that wishing well...

But I think we're both getting BETTER at being strong. Of course we'll have our moments where our vulnerability takes over, but this whole process is going to help... and our strength will continue to grow.

You know all the mantras: Detach, PMA, no expectations etc etc... They're here for a reason, and we'll do well to remind ourselves of them at every turn.

Keep your chin up. We'll get through this.

[subguy]

Arsene keep up the good work brother. A fellow LBS is cheering you on, stay strong.