Turtles, Lists and Toilet Brushes

[bustingout]

i think in some way he is using it to defend himself against his own guilt..

I agree my dearest zig...(((( )))))

He wants to make himself believe that you have not changed so he can continue to justify his decisions....and we ALL know better than that. And we have all learned that the WAS will continue to do this until...they simply cannot. So it should have ZERO effect on you.

this is HIS spin...not yours.

And when he does bring it up and talk about it, you can continue to be, whether he sees it or not, the better you that you have become.

i think its a good night for picnic...come back to the blanket zig...let the castle shake on its own....

[zig]

thanks everyone for your replies

I don't really know where i'm at this morning - or should i say this afternoon!!

i did something that i haven't really done since BD - i slept until almost noon.

which in and of itself is not a big deal, but in my case it's very significant.

That's what i did those 5 yrs when i shut down - and suddenly now i see what would make me do that. it was the constant occurences like yesterday - i would get helpless and paralysed and i would stay up half the night and then have no incentive to wake up the next day.

Right now i'm in flight mode - but oddly i'm relatively calm, but also have my eyes open. this time i'm seeing what state the big double bind and the "no talk" rule sends me into. i'm just observing.

i talked alot with my hypnotherapist friend yesterday - before all this went down. we talked about what the deeper issues surrounding me feeling invisible are about. I think that my reactions after this sort of interaction with h leaves me feeling so invisible that my mind goes into complete detached mode as a defense mechanism - there is some unresolved stuff here for me that is probably connected to the sexual abuse _there was a very strong "no talk' rule there, i imagine.

So when i went into that situation i was probably hyper-aware and determined NOT to feel invisible, and my insistence on that sent h into a tailspin. then i did what i always did - which was to KEEP ON trying not to be invisible. (the other side of the coin is that possibly h feels invisible when i try to tell him what is)

This is not about h or his freaky control issues. this is about how i need to get myself out of this. i'm a little scared right now - not fearful, just a little scared. I don't really know what about - so am going to wait and just observe myself quietly

labug - when you said one has to choose NOT to be involved in the no talk situation, could you help me to see how i can do that here, please?

I see that always the only "resort" i had was to walk away - emotionally and shut down. and not engage with h any longer. Now i can sense that there's possibly another way, but cannot see what it is.

Is it as simple as me just saying to h - h i'm sorry that i did not recognize that you needed to see for yourself, and i should have just let you do that instead of trying to tell you my version?

I cannot decide if that is just me appeasing him or the true "taking the stick away" strategy of dissolving the double bind.

This morning all i can see is that i have to get as far away from him as possible until i can ground myself in my OWN self again. Flight or just plain common sense? I can't even tell which one it is. it's not that i'm angry or worried about what happens with h and whether he'll come back or not. that has almost become irrelevant now.

The best thing for me right now is to quietly go work and focus on that and totally trust that this time the right answer will come. I don't need to be scared, i don't need to be fearful that being invisible is some sort of threat to me.

i love you all - and i'm going for a swim right now, so come join me

zig

[keep_going]

This morning all i can see is that i have to get as far away from him as possible until i can ground myself in my OWN self again.

This sounds like a great idea... Move on from yesterday's incident. Today is a new day, a new opportunity to be good to yourself.

Here is a little something that always helps me lift my spirits after a backslide or when I am going thru a wave of pain - from The Dalai Lama. I hope it helps:

"Every day, think as you wake up. Today I am fortunate to have woken up. I am alive, I have a precious human life. I am not going to waste it. I am going to use all my energies to develop myself, to expand my heart out to others, to achieve enlightment for the benefit of all beings. I am going to have kind thoughts towards others, I am not going to get angry, or think badly about others. I am going to benefit others as much as I can."


((((zig))))

[needgrace]

(((((((((sweet Zig)))))))))

sounds to me like another growth step is brewing for you.. i love the way you sit and reflect and read and question and then you take all of it, and evolve.. you have done that consistently and i sense you are doing it now..

i wish kd were here too. i am reminded though of his words to several DBers about encouraging our spouse's best self...

and i wonder how you are to do that now.. while also becoming the person you want to be...

i have been upset with your H about what he said to you... and then i remembered pema or jack kornfield saying how we hurt others out of our own pain and fear. ( i have been trying hard to remember that about my W as well. )

and i think again that M is the place we confront our deepest fears and hurts.. and perhaps we either run away, hurt each other, hide them away or heal..

i think it is good that you are taking time... and i trust that you will figure this out, you always do, zig, you always do. love you!

[bustingout]

((((((Zig))))))

something that you said struck a chord with me and what NG said about how we hurt others out of our own pain and fear.

the past several days i have been thinking not so much as getting H back as my immediate goal, but trying to create more time (thats not really my point) but what has been floating to my surface is our communication and the way we interact. I have been very uncomfortable with the way we interact. its a soft passive aggressiveness that almost underlines anything we say to each other outside the safe circle of the kids.

i have been trying to reflect on this. because i don't like what it makes me feel and i don't like that i can't just converse with this man that will be in my life well...basically always...no matter what our legal status.

taking a step back is good i think. and i also have been very conscious of expectations i may have been holding on to since he has been back (that he would see my changes and it would make a difference).

i guess what i am trying to say is that like has been said, while we make our changes, we cannot expect our spouses to see, appreciate or react to them in the way we would hope. So the only thing we can do is encourage their best behavior...and i will add, respect.


the question is how? i am still figuring it out but am thinking its by continuing being our best, and respecting ourselves and loving ourselves.


i am diving in now....lets go find Calm and do a shot while we are at it.

((((( )))))

[zig]

thanks so much keep going - i am going to put that up on my wall.

and what i am so delighted with is that after my last post i went out to run errands, and as i was driving the answers came to me - and they were just along the same lines.

My lesson here is:

How to stay open-hearted and kind, even when things happen which don't feel good to me

How to NOT shut down when I want to very badly, because I hurt.

And the answer that came to me - actually several insights -was that I don't need h's approval, I don't need to be heard to be visible, I don't need to be right in this and most of all I DON"T NEED TO TALK.

Suddenly after all this time - I have finally reached the place where I don't need to be visible for h or have it proven to me in any way that I am. I also don't need to be visible to anyone else - I can see zig, I can feel zig and that's all I need.

I had decided when I got home that i would text him and say that yes, let's talk, but not right away.

Before i could do that - a text from him. "I would like to talk sometime about yesterday when/if you want"

I replied back:"Yes I think that will be nice. I need some time though. I will let you know when I am ready. I have a lot to think about and process through right now. Thanks, z"

and there's still more processing to be done, and i feel so ok - i just trust that it will get clearer and i also trust that there will be many many more occasions to learn about myself - for the rest of my life.

now KD's words are always in my mind - You cannot un-know something...

zig

[NLW]

Hey Zig, You are handling this well.

You're right - just sit for a while and the right answers - for you - will come.

And on that "You haven't changed at all" line,
Please remember it is standard script.

The interesting thing, I believe, is that to comment like this, our H's MUST have noticed that we have changed - and they can't deal with it.
So they come out with this pearl at the first possible opportunity to reduce their unease.

I'd take it as a good sign, actually.
He's definitely noticed how much you've changed, and it's making him think.

But enough of him. This is about you, as you've realised, and you are doing just fine at the moment.

Keep up the great work!

[2chiquitos]

Zig,
H n I have had these arguments before and it would happen more in the beginning from 0-6/7mos of sitch. Although everyone has their own timeline don't assume this argument is a deal-breaker.

I distinctly remember H saying, So you've been faking it this whole time! (referring to me acting 'as if').
OR
H saying, You've ruined any progress we've made. (i.e. we are DONE)

Since then we bounce back from these setbacks a lot faster and it actually brings us a lot closer!

What's the *magic*? That after we've both cooled down we open up and our true feelings come out in a much more constructive way. Nonjudgemental, More recognition of their feelings. IOW; more of a consensus.

I now realize that H is sooo much more sensitive then he comes off to be (as most men are!) AND I struggle to soften the blows. When I communicate, I throw punches!

I hope that if and when you both do talk that you're able to speak from a place within.

Sweety, we love you and want you to continue growing. It's all about PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION! Big hugs!!!

**Also, let S tell him the shoes didn't fit. Walk away sooner than you did. That was between H n S. Don't get yourself intertwined in that discussion. I get how you felt but you needed to detach from that discussion sooner. Do you seriously thing S is going to wear small shoes to school just cuz dad told him? If he does, he's going to complain to his teacher and teacher's gonna give you guys a call and H is going to learn ON HIS OWN that he needs to buy S some indoor shoes.

Also, How important is it??

[scaredsilly]

i agree with vero. wait and consider what he said as script. my H used to take any objection i had as "another reason we can't be together". i finally told him i refuse to walk on eggshells, waiting for something i said to be "another reason".

let your H know that you are surprised he feels that way because you KNOW you've changed and addressed things in a positive way and you are happy with yourself. but he's entitled to his opinion even though you don't agree.

don't be threatened with abandonment when you feel differently than he does.

[StubbornDyke]

(((((Zig)))))

Yay, you're figuring it out. I was thinking that Pia's boundary lessons would be really helpful.

One thing she talks about is that when the other person tells us something that we don't think is true, we're not supposed to leap up to defend ourselves (not until we're much more experienced at this). That's exactly where my current mantra comes in.

She also persistently points out that no one makes us feel anything so we have to stop using the phrase "makes me". It's our own thoughts that create our feelings. And one way or another, we choose those.

Just to top it off, she says that we can tell other people what's going on for us that was triggered (not caused) by what they did. The catch is that we're not allowed to tell them if we're trying to get them to change. (Unless it's a boundary violation - then we can ask them to stop, but still be prepared to remove ourselves from the line of fire if they don't care to cooperate.)

It seems that you found your own path to a similar understanding before I got caught up on your thread. Zena!

Want to go in with me and NG on that case of duct tape?