you know h, i wonder if this maybe what is going on. first you gave your opinion on what you thought we should do and when we were done, i gave mine, and then the next thing you were upset that we never agree and we were on the road to a mess. Could it be that when you hear my opinion, which sounds different from yours, you hear it as me disagreeing with you, rather than that i am just saying what i think? for me, when i hear yours i don't think you are disagreeing, i think you are just saying what you feel or what you want to do. the way i see it is that we are offering 2 different viewpoints and that when we look for a solution , our solution will be much more richer because there is more depth to it"
Wow zena, you are having quite the weekend! Hope your dinner went well. I wanted to highlight this point because I think it is great - it really resonated with me as an issue i had with stbx. The way you framed it makes perfect sense and kudos for you for stopping where you were in the conversation to point this out to your h.
Wow, Vera, I'm glad you picked that out. I have the same dynamic as well. When I don't share the same opinion as H and offer my own opinion, he says I am challenging him and that we don't agree on anything, so we are not compatible. I will try to remember this the next time it happens. I've often felt like I am not allowed to have my own opinions.
M44 H57 D17 (special needs) M 18 yrs Bomb 7/2/12 Still living together
Thanks vera - i only had that insight, right there in that moment -not because I was clever, but for once, right in the heated moment I managed to stop and ask myself - what could h be feeling right now that is making him so defensive? From what I know of this man, and how he looks at the world, how could he be interpreting this exchange from where he is standing, not from where i am.
For once I was able to distance myself enough from what was going on to take a real look at it.
Thanks vero - your good luck worked - dinner was lovely - just h's grandparent, h s and me. his parents were out.
It was really relaxed - h was really relaxed and we had a lovely conversation and his grandmother was so happy i was there. We did something different in that all of us sat at the table and kept talking for the longest time - his grandparents didn't want to end it. There was a moment right in the beginning when we sat down when h made one of his rather stupid hurtful off hand remarks, meant as a goofy joke and to his grandma and you could clearly see she was really shocked and hurt and trying not to burst into tears.
I stayed out of it, but i could see that h saw. in the past i would have instantly said h how could you say that? let him mull on how he treats people - i sure as heck made him aware of it today.
so the conversation with s - was amazing - in my eyes. and my h was amazing!!
i came away with a wow feeling.
and KD - if you are reading this - thank you.
as i drove away all i could think of were your words to me a few days ago - about how a good leader draws the greatness out of other people. and how i know that i did that today with h - i drew out his ability to handle difficult situations - and i stood back a bit and let him handle it, and he did really really a great job.
i think we also gave s for the first time in a long time, if ever, a really solid message that he got - that we were both solidly there for him - together.
we sent him off to shower and h and i talked for a few minutes outside - i told him that at one point i really wasn't sure how to proceed and that when he stepped in and said what he did i was in awe. and how impressed i was at how he handled it. earlier this afternoon i had told him how i thought he was a really great father and that i had never doubted it
i could tell that he wanted to be pleased - but blew off a bit self-deprecatingly my validation.. but i am sure it meant a lot to him, because when we first started he signaled to me shall i start or you? and i said he should
a few minutes into it when s was really upset he asked if he could go to the restroom. while he was gone, h turned to me and said in a rather vulnerable way - did i do that alright?
personally, i was sitting there a bit worried, because he had started off quite aggressively, but i think it was nervousness and so i said - h you did great - i think we both get very nervous doing this and don't quite know how to go about it..
it seemed like after that, he really relaxed and focused only on s - and his voice was the most gentle i have ever heard - gentle but firm, which is how it should be
for the first time we let each other take turns talking, and each validated what the other said to s instead of how in the past we would often land up arguing about what the other said.
so i am really really pleased - this was like a dream come true and i learned so much from today. especially so much more insight on how wrongly i had gone about things all these years. about how much i played a role in h's ineffective parenting, and how i could change that in myself.
one funny little dynamic did play out. when h started to talk to s he started with - "zig and I.... " and i stopped him and said - h please refer to me as mama or your mother, not by my name. it sort of became a little joke through the whole discussion, where he'd say my name by accident, make a face and we'd all start laughing and then say mama. it actually made for a lot of lightness, for all three of us and we actually laughed in a really relaxed way together several times. come to think of it completely relaxed and for the first time since BD.
all i can say is that- tonight - the 3 of us were together in the most relaxed way - feeling the most close as a family in what was quite a difficult conversation with s and we were a unit. we actually handled it the most wisely that we ever have - and i don't think i ever felt so close to h in parenting as i did tonight- we were always on 2 sides of a 10 ft fence!!
I am truly grateful for today - and my heart is really warm. i'm actually really impressed with h - i had spoken to mil this evening and happened to mention that h and i had been on the phone for close to 3 hours. she told me that that info really shocked her. i asked why - she said that all morning h was having a nervous breakdown and completely freaking out because yesterday he had discovered that there were some really serious problems with the house and the foundation.
i was amazed - that man took the time to listen to me and work with me through a HUGE amount of stuff today - when he should have been working at the house. when i said that to mil she said -that was my thought too - that he chose to do that first. and the conversation was not exactly easy for him.
but more than that - after the day he had with all the stress of the house and what we worked through - he really was so present and competent this evening during our talk with s - that considering how he has been this past year - i was really impressed with how well he handled it all - more than impressed
best of all - i was able to walk away and come home feeling completely okay about leaving them there - not even the slightest twinge of going away and what that meant.
so yes, vera - i've had quite a weekend - including going out on my own to the busker festival going out with friend to 'get drunk" last night at what is actually h's favorite bar (her choice!!) which i know he's been to with ow, and it didn't even bother me one bit and getting my family together in a beautiful way. and hey - to top it off - reached a goal - that h would invite me over for dinner there!! filled my tank up pretty nice if i do say so myself
of course the goal came after i didn't care whether i reached it or not - funny how life works!!!
okay long again - oops!!
zig
me 46 H 38 M10yrs T 11 S10 BD ow 8/11 h filed 9/25/12
"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"
the rope burned my fingers REALLY BADLY, which meant i was holding on tight.. i need to drop it so it stops burning
^^^ is the best thing for you and for all of us to notice - you put is so well, ng - brilliantly. we have to learn to recognize when that happens and let go and drop it as soon as we can, because we are only causing ourselves pain other wise.
and when we don't let go we are, i think in a similar fog as the WAS is - the pain stops us from being able to think straight and then we are running only on our emotions.
i've been reading about surrender and the peace that comes with it and it really does come with it. but i also found out that surrender needs to happen repeatedly for us - again and again, each time we pick up the rope.
you will find your way through this ng - you are really close to feeling your first encounter with surrender.
i'm already seeing how each day i have to re-surrender and am even starting to accept that
(((((((((( ))))))))))) hope you had a great weekend, sweet friend
zig
me 46 H 38 M10yrs T 11 S10 BD ow 8/11 h filed 9/25/12
"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"
hi hopeful - i got further insight into my role in this over the years tonight.
i was trying to lead- but not in the way that KD suggested one should do - it was more elephant style - elbowing my way into position, insisting that my way was the right way.
tonight i realized that i never gave h a chance to step up and show what he was capable of.
as i drove home i started crying when i realized what a disservice i had done to him in his role as a father.
i have talked to my mom about this in the past - how i grew up watching her take over the parenting 100% and not giving my dad any role in it whatsoever. she insisted he didn't want it. and i assumed the same about h. i was very wrong. not only did he want it - way different from my father, but he is also good at it.
so i feel ashamed tonight of how i did not understand how i functioned.
one big thing that came up tonight was that s is absolutely not willing to confess in front of h - never has been. h acknowledged to me afterwards that it was probably because he was so intolerant of anything except perfect behavior, and we talked a bit about how we needed to explore that further so that s would feel it was okay to not be perfect in h's eyes.
i told h that it was something i always saw in s - it was unbearable to s that h would ever find out that he misbehaved or did something that wasn't appropriate.
so h is really thinking about his own role in how people respond to him based on the strong messages he has given over the years. that's a big step, in my eyes. i know that i facilitated that by acknowledging my own feelings about how he had made me feel over the years today and him seeming to be genuinely surprised that i had hurts that he had caused.
So breaking the pattern of H not stepping up to the plate, forcing us to be the fixers.
for me what seemed to work was to blatantly give up that role today . also to state really clearly and equivocally that i was not willing to continue being the one h could fall on when he needed help! i also started expecting him to do more. for e.g.. just stated as if i didn't care very much that i guess he would have to go pick up a violin for s because i didn't care to make the time.
i've been thinking about the under and over-compensating dynamic in relationships. if it works one way then it has to work the other. so i think what i've been doing over the last few weeks was just started to under-compensate. which has in turn caused h to begin compensating more to fill the gap. he can hardly tell s that he doesn't feel like getting the violin when s needs it at school. so then he has to fix, because i don't care to any longer....
do you think that's something you could apply in your own sitch?
thanks for popping in:)
zig
me 46 H 38 M10yrs T 11 S10 BD ow 8/11 h filed 9/25/12
"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"
wow. tears. this is so fantastic. I am so so so happy for you!!! You've recognised it, dealt with it, and you'll never do it again. from now on it's just h's choice because you won't be forcing him into that role.
I had a bit of that dynamic myself I think all of us fixers do. And I never want to again. In fact I know I won't ever again because it hit me so hard when I realised.
big hugs and the chocolate cake at the picnic was fab!
as i drove away all i could think of were your words to me a few days ago - about how a good leader draws the greatness out of other people. and how i know that i did that today with h - i drew out his ability to handle difficult situations - and i stood back a bit and let him handle it, and he did really really a great job.
I've been reading along, yes.
Zig, you did an amazing job over the course of this with breaking the patterns.
I have to admit that being supportive for you is the easiest thing in the world. You, dear zig, have bloomed into your own greatness through this unfortunate situation and truly are a fantastic role model for any to follow.
It was impressive to watch you work through this hump and get to where you are now. Keep up those positive changes.
While anyone is capable of doing what you are doing, not everyone is able to. And that's OK. That's one thing I've had to learn and I hope you understand that, yourself. That too will help you become an even greater leader and encourage that in others.
What I want to point out is that your H is like a toddler in this. Because these people, our WAS... or MLCers... would we be behaving the way we are if they were our children? Would we give up on them? Blame them? Chastise them? Daemonize them?
No...
That's where OUR CHOICE... RIGHT HERE... RIGHT NOW... can make a huge difference...
Getting out of our own way... dropping our own ego... and growing in significant ways so that we can also encourage that growth in others around us... perhaps our spouses... and maybe... save our Ms...
When we have our expectations... as in how you originally thought it would look for your H to step up to his role as a father... as your mother expected your dad to step up in his role... it doesn't look like we expected... so we internally see it as wrong and jump in to fix... and rationalize it as them being unable or unwilling to step into their greatness... for them to grow... to do things in a way that is different than how we'd do it... because our belief systems own us and suggest that if it's not our way... it won't work... it isn't good enough...
You've done an amazing job and your H WILL grow through this... as you continue to encourage his positive growth... and it WILL look different than you envision... and that is OK... his way is no better or worse than yours... unless you think it is...
