Acc, I don't think the kids have to be "out of control" in order for the father to feel pushed out of his parenting role. My niece and nephew certainly weren't, they (my nephew mostly) were just doing things like Ad described. In fact, the kids could be perfectly well-behaved and that might even be worse. Then there's proof that the father isn't "needed."
Ad, I hope you're around to chime in on this. I've gone way out on a limb here and read in a lot, and I don't want to take everyone out there with me with my comments.
CV, I keep writing and deleting posts. Your brother really did that without offering an alternative? He couldn't have gone to her at some point and said, "I'd like to be more involved"?
Of course it's difficult to look into anyone else's situation and know what's really going on.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
I see the challenge. During my sitch, W has "arranged" her life so that she coordinated with the kids and it made it difficult to be part of the family. Summers were spent away. Homework was organized & discussed before I got home from work. School info was not shared, dinner time was the 3 of them getting everything set, etc. etc.
I had to change my behaviors and take it upon myself to find out info and ask more questions. It turned out to be a good practice for me but my natural tendancy was to shrink back because I was not wanted someplace. But this was my kids, and I wasn't going to let that happen.
One funny thing that ended up happening was that I went to an awards thing for my S. W had said nothing to me and actually had not known about it until the last minute. When she got there, she was surprised to see me already sitting down.
I think its natural for a man to gravitate away from any situation where he does not feel respected. Not saying the tendancy is alwasy good. Its just there. Like so many other things we have to recognize these tendancies in ourselves and determine when they are helpful and when they are harmful, and then act in a way that is productive.
Me:45, W:45 S:16 D:13 M:22, T:25 Bomb: July 2010 Putting finances in order for "D" Continue to live in same home-separate rooms
ManySome of us were raised with that as a model for fatherhood, mom handled all but the really bad stuff, which went to Dad but mostly, Dad came home and sat on the couch and read the paper. As a society we've had a hard time shaking that.
Good on you, ces, for seeing that as a problem and seeking a way to change it.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
Yeah I think we're discussing two things here that are actually different:
1) The role of the father in parenting, getting pushed aside or being active etc.
2) The responsibility of the father (and mother) to love their kids unconditionally, support them, and make them feel like their parents have their backs.
I'm really only passionate about #2 in this debate. If the father wants to sit on the couch and watch TV, that's not great, but it's much better than letting his kids know they are a disappointment.
One of W's friends told her daughter (who is 8) that she liked her son more and didn't really like her daughter at all. Stuff like that is inexcusable, that's just setting up a lifetime of self esteem and relationship problems for the kid.
That's my issue with Ad's H as a father -- and I don't think being "pushed aside" is a valid excuse not to love and support your kids. You can use that as an excuse not to be an active parent, but not to pull back on love and support.
In a relationship, I believe we have a responsibility to meet our spouse's needs if we want to keep them. Our kids owe us no such debt. There is nothing they should have to do to earn your approval or your love.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
But I think the one situation can lead into the other-Dad is passive, Dad chooses to remain passive, or only steps in with overblown reaction when things are 'out of control', Mom reacts negatively to that, Dad returns to passive, resentment builds. As time goes on Dad blames kid behaviors on Mom.
I don't think kids should have to earn a parent's love. But I can still love my kids and not approve of all of their choices.
I would guess that if asked Ad's H would say he loves his kids he just doesn't approve of their behavior.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
Well this is a wonderful discussion. I hope it's not completely lost on Adinva because it's off base.
ces, I wasn't involved in everything that went on with my brother's sitch behind closed doors. I only know that prior to the blow-up, I saw multiple situations where my brother attempted to get involved and my SIL shut him down. Did he specifically state his need? I don't know. I do know he tried to be involved in an active way, and to me, actions always speak louder than words.
Acc, you make a very good point, and I completely agree with you. As with most things, however, easier said than done. I saw so much of this issue with my H and his ex and his kids, I'm at a complete loss as to what my H could have done to accomplish what you're suggesting. How do you love and support your children when they refuse to abide the custody schedule and are rarely around you? How do you love and support your children when they argue everything you say because "mom said..."? How do you support your child when they are doing the exact opposite of something you support (ie. 14yo girl going to Homecoming driven by a 16yo boy you've never met, staying out until 2:00am, and ignoring the custody schedule that says it's your weekend to stay at mom's because mom says all this is fine.) Do you go over to mom's and take pics of her lovely dress and hair? Do you tell her you hope she has a wonderful night? Do you ask for all the wonderful fun details of the night the next time you see her?
I know that a conflictual D/custody sitch is worse (and part of my own motivation to stay M'd for son's sake,) but the basis of the problem is the same.
How do you show love/support to someone when they are doing something you don't love/support? Is this question re: our kids really any different than what we all have to deal with as spouses? How do we love/support our spouses when they are doing things we don't love/support?
CV and Labug -- there's an important distinction there between not approving of their actions and not approving of them as a person.
If we don't approve of their actions, it's our duty to guide and discipline. The message is "you are worthy and I love you but you're making bad choices and I'm going to help you with that (whether you like it or not)"
The alternative is "I don't approve of the person you are, and therefore no matter what you do you won't have my support"
I thought Ad's H was coming in with the second message -- these kids are turning out badly because of Ad. That's different than these are great kids but they are doing bad things.
If I misread then I will do an Emily Litella and say "never mind" to conclude my long rant
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
