14 Months Secret Separation: talking mediation

[BklynMom]

Your children are a factor in your H crisis. Seems like your H has a rigid ideas about desipline which may not be so effective given your boys age and temperment. Since all he knows he is how to rule with an iron fist yet subconsciously he knows it will prob not be effective with his boys. He cant bear to be ineffective parenting his boys. Part of his decision to walk away is because he is afraid of their teenage years. If he leaves he will not be ineffective, and it is not his fault that he has to leave its your fault.

(My diagnosis based on following your sitch for 9 months, take what you like..:)

[adinva]

Bklyn Mom I think you're right that it is a factor. He did admit that he thinks its my fault for the kids being the way they are; it's one of the reasons he gave his mom last year for why he wanted a divorce. I don't think it's the only factor but definitely one. Talking with the counselor the few times he did I think opened his eyes just a little.

I asked him last night if he ever did any of the things s is doing and he did not, not at his age and some things not ever. He never smoked at all, not anything. He never drank in high school. He was too busy working hard to get into a good college. I think he just plain doesn't understand why his kids aren't like he was.

I asked him if he ever lied to his mom, and he said he never did; his mom never asked him any questions.

[Crazyville]

Ad, what did the counselor tell him that you think "opened his eyes?"

[ces67]

interesting application of "using the letter of the law to override the spirit of the law". Just because he didn't "lie" doesn't mean there was not deception....

[Accuray]

How can it be your fault that the kids turned out the way they did, and how can he look at your kids at their ages and think something is wrong with them?

If they know they are a disappointment to their father, do you know what that will do to their self-esteem and self-worth? If your H thinks your kids "turned out badly" he's as @sshole and has no one to blame but himself.

[adinva]

CV most of the time we spent in counseling, which was just a few sessions together and then twice with the kids, she sort of refereed our different styles and pointed out strong points and flaws in each. I think she opened his eyes a little to the fact that he's also responsible for how they grow up, and that leaving me won't change that. He's been occasionally more involved, and the recent episode where he wanted to wait until after he wasn't angry anymore before dealing with S14 was something the counselor talks about a lot. The counselor also talked to him about how he comes across when he is very loud and seems very angry over the slightest thing; she suggested he try to moderate his tone a little. Though he said the counseling seemed pointless there are a few things I think seeped in.

[Crazyville]

Thanks for the clarification, Adinva. I don't think I realized that your kids were part of the counseling ever, present or otherwise.

You've done a great job not villanizing your H and recognizing that both of you are at fault (better than I've done, admittedly.) I think one of the things you've admitted to as something you've contributed negatively to the R is that you often discounted your H's input. In regards to kids and this issue, I've seen it wreak havoc on the man in at least two close relationships -- my H with his ex/custody, and my brother with my SIL. I can tell you in both cases, when the man is trying to be the "man"/leader/disciplinarian/father and the wife (or ex-wife) undermines/overrides/discounts everything they do, it's very emasculating.

For my H, he said that he felt castrated in his role as his kids' father and talked about just walking away many times (he fought hard physically, emotionally and financially to get joint custody of his kids at the time of the D.) But with his ex working against him and his kids mimicking her attitude, he felt like he simply held no value as their father, and didn't want to be their "friend," and didn't want to appear to advocate their behavior by going along with their mother's dictates. If he had loved them any less or had any less of a personal desire to be their father in an active way, I know he would have walked.

For my brother, he had a similar situation where my SIL would override any sort of discipline he attempted. She's just a softie (or too tired to deal with it) and would let my niece and nephew get away with things. By the time they became teenagers, they had developed some very bad behaviors and my SIL started to see a problem. So then she comes to my brother and wants him to step in and be the disciplinarian. He was very stand-offish. He told her that she had refused his assistance up until that point so he told her she could continue to handle it on her own, that she would just need to figure it out. Plus, he didn't feel like it was appropriate for her to play "good cop" and expect him to be the "bad cop," that she was just as capable of applying discipline as he was. It was a tough time for them. I completely understand my brother's position, though. As it stands, they worked something out, my brother stepped in, my SIL backed him up, and they've recently celebrated their 30th wedding anniversary. But it could have gone very badly.

I'm just wondering if this could be somewhat how your H is/was feeling. Especially in light of you saying that he likes to spend time with this other woman's kids moreso even than his own. Perhaps he simply doesn't feel like he's valued as a father to yours, whereas this other woman presents him respectfully and expects her kids to do so as well.

I know I'm reading WAY deep into this, but it's just what came to mind when I was reading your comments and others responses to it. I definitely don't feel like he's being an @sshole if he feels like he's been pushed out/overridden/disrespected/devalued as their father for years.

[~ kd ~]

That was a really good post, CV.

[Accuray]

That was really good -- if you ever watched "Nanny 911" or any of the other out of control kids shows, the 100% repeatable formula for out of control kids was to have a mother who never enforces any discipline and constantly overrides the father. Often she'll scream and yell but never enforces consequences. The fathers were generally checked out and just watched TV and did their own thing ignoring the chaos with the kids and thinking it was the wife's job, or they just got tired of being overridden.

Thing is, I don't believe Ad is in this cycle, because I don't think her kids are out of control, and I DO think she enforces discipline. Sorry if my last post came across as strong but damn, he is their father, they can't pick another one. Its his responsibility to raise them to the best of his ability and to love and support them no matter what. Giving up on preteen kids and condemning them as unworthy just doesn't compute with me and from my perspective there is NO excuse for that. Don't allow yourself to be overridden, be responsible.

[Rick1963]

Sorry to hijack AD but Accuman described me to a T. I was the uninvolved father and W always went against my better judgement when it came to my D. So after a while you just give up and say eff it. Not a good thing to do. I'm here because I tried to enforce some rules with D last summer. Did it the wrong way. But I won't let it happened again regardless of what W thinks. So this past weekend I told D that it was time for her to hit the bed by 10 pm since school starts in 2 weeks. She's been doing that.