Interpretation of MWD and DR regarding infidelity

[Arsene]

Thanks Denver,

I know that when I go through a tough time like what just happened yesterday re: D8 and W, I feel like just giving up but once I calm down I can see that there is more at play here than W flexing her muscles.

It's just that sometimes, when I stop and regain control of my emotions, although I know I'm doing the right thing, it feels like I'm just enabling her to walk all over me. I feel like she might actually be losing respect and that a tough stance might reverse this. On the other hand, I'm pretty confident that if I did offer an ultimatum now, it would spell the end of this marriage.

Thanks for reminding me to be patient.

[Arsene]

Thanks Carnac,

It helps to see that I'm not the only one going through this thought process. I'm still going through Denver's threads and you are right, not too long ago, he was also feeling that way. I have to keep reminding myself the it's a marathon, not a sprint.

BTW, just today I started writing such a letter, knowing well I'm not ready to send it yet.

Cheers mate!

[Arsene]

Yeah, thanks for reminding us Starsky. It just very difficult to process that when you are in such a situation, but I know you are right.

[Arsene]

"Anyone can give up, it's the easiest thing to do. But to hold it together when everyone would understand if you fell apart,that's true strength"

Thanks Denver, that's one which will end up in my little note book. Thanks!

[Starsky309]

It's just that sometimes, when I stop and regain control of my emotions, although I know I'm doing the right thing, it feels like I'm just enabling her to walk all over me. I feel like she might actually be losing respect and that a tough stance might reverse this. On the other hand, I'm pretty confident that if I did offer an ultimatum now, it would spell the end of this marriage.

Thanks for reminding me to be patient.

Arsene, maybe the following will help you. It's from my personal archives -- something I saved once from a post to another poster on here -- but it goes to the whole "am I just being a schmuck?" thing that many (especially us GUYS) have a real hard time with. Maybe you can get something out of it:


On “having a plan,” and “The Schmuck Factor”:


I think you let her know that you are here for her when she is ready to do the work necessary. She clearly isn't ready to do that right now.

It would convey weakness if you were to be supplicating towards her while she was still actively cheating on you, and disrespecting her boundaries. Letting her know that you are willing to suck it up, forgive, love unconditionally and do the hard work of reconciliation -- when she is ready -- does NOT convey weakness, it conveys character and strength.

Many, many people confuse "unconditional love" with "doormat-without-boundaries." It is entirely possible -- and NECESSARY -- to demonstrate unconditional love and forgiveness, within a framework of healthy boundaries.

Do you not love a child unconditionally, while at the same time not allowing them to use obscenity when speaking to you? Do you not love a spouse, while simultaneously not allowing them to berate you in front of another couple?

Those are just two silly examples, but I think this is where you're getting hung up. Us men have a REALLLLL hard time with the whole "schmuck factor" thing, and it really rears its head when there is infidelity involved. We don't like to be made a fool. But if your "standing" for your marriage is PART OF A PLAN -- YOUR plan -- then who's the schmuck here? You take a position of "Yes, I am, at the moment, deciding to stand for my marriage, even though my wife is having an affair and is refusing to admit it and work at the marriage, but I have made this choice to do this FOR A PERIOD OF TIME, and I will hold out as long as I can, all the while trying to lay out and enforce healthy boundaries for me and my children. My wife is an adult, I cannot control her, and I'm praying that she comes to her senses soon, before my love for her fully runs out, but I can hold on for "x" months and I will do so, to the best of my ability. This is MY decision, this is MY stand, and I am doing it with boundaries, legal/financial protections for me and my kids, and for a finite period (uncommunicated to spouse -- just tell her "I won't wait forever") of time."

My wife asked me both during -- and after -- her affair, why I was fighting for her. Why I hadn't kicked her out immediately. I told her:

- because I took a wedding vow, before God, and I took that very seriously. It was not "for better or for better yet," it was "for better or for WORSE";

- because I loved her, and we had a lot of shared history together;

- because I didn't want to demonstrate to our four children that when things get tough, you cut and run. You make a stand and fight for what is important to you, for as long as you can, to the best of your ability;

- because if the situation were reversed, and I had say a gambling or alcohol addiction, I would hope that she would do the same and fight for ME;

- and because I didn't want to go to my death bed with REGRETS, that I should have tried harder. If I was going to err, I was going to err on the side of trying to save my marriage and keep my family intact.

When you lay out (and maybe even write down), what YOUR OWN reasons are, and give yourself an internal deadline (6 months, one year, whatever) . . . then I think, as a man, we can feel like WE are executing a plan, and that we're not being a "schmuck."

Does that make sense??

Puppy

[Arsene]

Thanks Starsky,

This helps. A lot. Thanks.

[Denver_2010]

Those are just two silly examples, but I think this is where you're getting hung up. Us men have a REALLLLL hard time with the whole "schmuck factor" thing, and it really rears its head when there is infidelity involved. We don't like to be made a fool. But if your "standing" for your marriage is PART OF A PLAN -- YOUR plan -- then who's the schmuck here? You take a position of "Yes, I am, at the moment, deciding to stand for my marriage, even though my wife is having an affair and is refusing to admit it and work at the marriage, but I have made this choice to do this FOR A PERIOD OF TIME, and I will hold out as long as I can, all the while trying to lay out and enforce healthy boundaries for me and my children. My wife is an adult, I cannot control her, and I'm praying that she comes to her senses soon, before my love for her fully runs out, but I can hold on for "x" months and I will do so, to the best of my ability. This is MY decision, this is MY stand, and I am doing it with boundaries, legal/financial protections for me and my kids, and for a finite period (uncommunicated to spouse -- just tell her "I won't wait forever") of time."

My wife asked me both during -- and after -- her affair, why I was fighting for her. Why I hadn't kicked her out immediately. I told her:

- because I took a wedding vow, before God, and I took that very seriously. It was not "for better or for better yet," it was "for better or for WORSE";

- because I loved her, and we had a lot of shared history together;

- because I didn't want to demonstrate to our four children that when things get tough, you cut and run. You make a stand and fight for what is important to you, for as long as you can, to the best of your ability;

- because if the situation were reversed, and I had say a gambling or alcohol addiction, I would hope that she would do the same and fight for ME;

- and because I didn't want to go to my death bed with REGRETS, that I should have tried harder. If I was going to err, I was going to err on the side of trying to save my marriage and keep my family intact.

When you lay out (and maybe even write down), what YOUR OWN reasons are, and give yourself an internal deadline (6 months, one year, whatever) . . . then I think, as a man, we can feel like WE are executing a plan, and that we're not being a "schmuck."

Does that make sense??

Puppy
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^^^ exactly