I'm mainly trying to point out the basic "push/pull" laws of human dynamics, esp. romantic interpersonal relationships. It never ceases to amaze me how LBSs can't understand how their spouse's DUMPING them made them wake up, and begin to pursue them, and to learn to use that to their advantage (within a framework of legitimate self-improvement).
And, yes, that is also true Chatterbug. Some people ARE simply asses.
M 43 X 38 T 13 W moves out of home 11/2010 Roller coaster from hell 2/2011-5/2012 I request divorce 5/2012 W moves home 6/2012 Good time 7/2012 - 1/2015 I leave 3/2016 process of divorce
One of the main issues in our M was that my H felt unapprecaited and abandoned. We also fought a lot and I had a short fuse. His needs were NOT met by me . . .
KG,
Again, I apologize but I don't know your sitch other than your recent posts here on this thread. DO YOU genuinely believe these were VALID prior (pre-husband's-affair) marital complaints? WERE you unappreciative, abandoning and uncaring toward meeting your husband's emotional needs? Did he ever (even often) express these things to you BEFORE he had hia affair?
Or are these just the classic "re-writing of marital history" that goes on in nearly all affairs? Big, BIG difference, and I'm just trying to better understand your sitch.
Starsky
I believe my H's complaints are valid in the way I describe them. (One thing I've done right since he left is A LOT of introspective, honest work to see where I failed). Yet, he is telling anyone that I abused him emotionally for 13 years of marriage and he left to save our children from my abuse, so yes, there has also been some re-writing going on.
I will try to give some context to my sitch...
As soon as H left, I started working on myself. After a few months I saw improvements - he started confiding in me, sharing and we even went out on three dates. I had no boundaries in place at the time - he came and went as he wished, saw the kids and socialized with us when he wanted, etc.
I found out about OW about a month into our S, but didn't confront until it all became too much for me - about 7 months into our S. After that, I was very inconsistent - either trying to set boundaries and going dim or trying to be friendly and compete with OW.
Right after the birth of our son a year ago, I realized he had just been cake-eating when he told me he was going public with his R with OW. I immediately stopped pursuing and set boundaries - most of the time I did not initiate contact and we stopped doing things as a family. But we argued a lot due to my lack of detachment. He distanced himself again and started introducing OW to friends and relatives and asked his family not to invite me to functions anymore.
Yet, in the last six months or so, he has done a 180 on me. He wants to be friends and makes an effort to improve our communication, but always being clear that OW is here to stay. He wants me to accept her and her involvement in our children's lives (to which I have always been absolutely against until we are divorced - and that has been the source of all our arguments in the last year.
It doesn't help that from what I have learned (and I snooped A LOT at the beginning), OW is actually a nice person and my H always told her we were done and he would never come back since I was abusive to him. He has told me that OW pushes him to get along with me and if it wasn't for her, our R would be a lot worse and she wants to be a good influence in my kids lives. Cannot compete with that right now...
I don't think my H is in MLC. Yes, at first he was depressed but he seems his old self again (minus his love for me). He has re-connected with old friends and family, is working on himself to become a better person and make himself happy. He GALs constantly and he wants me to find someone to be happy with. (Sometimes when he talks, I think he has read DR himself!) He has once again become the excellent father he was before leaving and is excited about making OW part of their lives too.
So his behavior doesn't really match what others here describe about their SO's - as dealing with depression, confusion, loss of a close relative, erratic behavior, selfishness, doubts, lack of self esteem, having doubts about the R, or having a loser OP.
So why are we not D yet? H has been trying to convince me to do a collaborative D process, be amicable and do it cheaper for the sake of our kids and to be better co-parents.
Following advice from DB coach I told him I understand he wants a D and I won't stand in his way, but won't help him either since I don't want it. Yet he has taken this as me trying to control and stall the D process. (Just this morning he sent me another email asking me to please reconsider and agree to a collaborative divorce.)
Sorry for the long post... I tried to summarize my sitch as best as I could. I feel that my H's current behavior is unique and am just looking for the best approach at this time.
Thanks again for a great thread.
Me & H: 44 D7, D6, S3 Together: 20y, M: 17y EA: 11/13/10, Sep: 12/23/10 EA becomes PA: Spring 2011 H filed for D: 09/06/12 D Negotiating began 2/15 OW seemingly gone on 3/15 Still negotiating D
It doesn't help that from what I have learned (and I snooped A LOT at the beginning), OW is actually a nice person and my H always told her we were done and he would never come back since I was abusive to him. He has told me that OW pushes him to get along with me and if it wasn't for her, our R would be a lot worse and she wants to be a good influence in my kids lives. Cannot compete with that right now...
seems to me, if she were such a "nice person" she wouldn't be taking another woman's husband. so he told her you are "abusive" and that isn't true, right? yet she conveniently believes it, even though by now she should have realized he is lying. all the rest ("pushes him to get along with me" etc) is just - she is stealing what is yours, and giving you the crumbs.
Absolutely. But many, most, times, they are leaving the LBS, or choosing an OP, because there has been something missing in their R with LBS. So they probably don't fear losing the LBS at the beginning. In those cases, gotta give them something to fear losing.
I don't disagree. I'm in favor of a short "Plan A" before going to bigger guns, esp. if you were legitimately an ass prior to the wayward spouse's infidelity.
Denver, that is also what I'm thinking, especially that W looks like she's going through MLC and doesn't like me at all right now.
Starsky, I don't think I was that big of an ass but I was no saint either and I willingly take a huge share of the responsibility in this. I think I might be getting to the point where I would switch to the Starsky way very soon because I'm not sure how much more "plan A" I have in me at this point.
Freshman Class of 2012
M-49 W-42 1D-10 T 10 YEARS M 9 YEARS EA/MLC 07/2010 Separation 28/05/2012 PA confirmed 31/07/12 W Asked for D 31/07/12 D on and off the table since then
I'm mainly trying to point out the basic "push/pull" laws of human dynamics, esp. romantic interpersonal relationships. It never ceases to amaze me how LBSs can't understand how their spouse's DUMPING them made them wake up, and begin to pursue them, and to learn to use that to their advantage (within a framework of legitimate self-improvement).
Starsky: Great post....I think its exactly where I find myself today. I do have one question though, and mind you I have read DB and DR but can't seem to find DR so its been a few years since I read it. What are the big guns? Are you talking about exposure? I know thats a grand debate here...my question is this, I don't know for sure about OM....I think there is (I know mind-reading but lets just say i've been here before and kind of know the signs) so as of this week i've decided to treat it that way. Which really is a change of approach for me, before I was gray at best and trying to be friendly....im pretty black right now and while cordial im not really shooting for friendly. Im not ready to snoop and get evidence yet...mainly b/c of the whole she may file in a month thing. If that happens then the entire dynamic changes in my mind and not only will my lawyer drag this out 18 months, i'll be more....for lack of a better word agressive in finding out info.
And i'd also like to share to all the other LBS out there. 6 years ago when we seperated due to PA my wife said the exact words that all of them seem to say....that to her it was over so it wasn't cheating. We all know its absurd...but surely at least logically we can all understand that they have to rationalize it in their head that way, if they don't then they have to look in the mirror and admit they're "bad" people going against their own morals. Its no different than someone who has always said divorce was bad for kids now saying that the kids will bounce back and it won't affect them...its pure rationalization...changing the story to fit just like happens in every other aspect.
Starsky and others.....ive got a few more questions that are unrelated so I won't post here but if you wouldnt mind checking my thread later i'd appreciate your input.
One of the main issues in our M was that my H felt unapprecaited and abandoned. We also fought a lot and I had a short fuse. His needs were NOT met by me . . .
KG,
Again, I apologize but I don't know your sitch other than your recent posts here on this thread. DO YOU genuinely believe these were VALID prior (pre-husband's-affair) marital complaints? WERE you unappreciative, abandoning and uncaring toward meeting your husband's emotional needs? Did he ever (even often) express these things to you BEFORE he had hia affair?
Or are these just the classic "re-writing of marital history" that goes on in nearly all affairs? Big, BIG difference, and I'm just trying to better understand your sitch.
Starsky
I believe my H's complaints are valid in the way I describe them. (One thing I've done right since he left is A LOT of introspective, honest work to see where I failed). Yet, he is telling anyone that I abused him emotionally for 13 years of marriage and he left to save our children from my abuse, so yes, there has also been some re-writing going on.
I will try to give some context to my sitch...
As soon as H left, I started working on myself. After a few months I saw improvements - he started confiding in me, sharing and we even went out on three dates. I had no boundaries in place at the time - he came and went as he wished, saw the kids and socialized with us when he wanted, etc.
I found out about OW about a month into our S, but didn't confront until it all became too much for me - about 7 months into our S. After that, I was very inconsistent - either trying to set boundaries and going dim or trying to be friendly and compete with OW.
Right after the birth of our son a year ago, I realized he had just been cake-eating when he told me he was going public with his R with OW. I immediately stopped pursuing and set boundaries - most of the time I did not initiate contact and we stopped doing things as a family. But we argued a lot due to my lack of detachment. He distanced himself again and started introducing OW to friends and relatives and asked his family not to invite me to functions anymore.
Yet, in the last six months or so, he has done a 180 on me. He wants to be friends and makes an effort to improve our communication, but always being clear that OW is here to stay. He wants me to accept her and her involvement in our children's lives (to which I have always been absolutely against until we are divorced - and that has been the source of all our arguments in the last year.
It doesn't help that from what I have learned (and I snooped A LOT at the beginning), OW is actually a nice person and my H always told her we were done and he would never come back since I was abusive to him. He has told me that OW pushes him to get along with me and if it wasn't for her, our R would be a lot worse and she wants to be a good influence in my kids lives. Cannot compete with that right now...
I don't think my H is in MLC. Yes, at first he was depressed but he seems his old self again (minus his love for me). He has re-connected with old friends and family, is working on himself to become a better person and make himself happy. He GALs constantly and he wants me to find someone to be happy with. (Sometimes when he talks, I think he has read DR himself!) He has once again become the excellent father he was before leaving and is excited about making OW part of their lives too.
So his behavior doesn't really match what others here describe about their SO's - as dealing with depression, confusion, loss of a close relative, erratic behavior, selfishness, doubts, lack of self esteem, having doubts about the R, or having a loser OP.
So why are we not D yet? H has been trying to convince me to do a collaborative D process, be amicable and do it cheaper for the sake of our kids and to be better co-parents.
Following advice from DB coach I told him I understand he wants a D and I won't stand in his way, but won't help him either since I don't want it. Yet he has taken this as me trying to control and stall the D process. (Just this morning he sent me another email asking me to please reconsider and agree to a collaborative divorce.)
Sorry for the long post... I tried to summarize my sitch as best as I could. I feel that my H's current behavior is unique and am just looking for the best approach at this time.
Thanks again for a great thread.
KG, thank you for the long and thorough post. It was excellent, and really helps me understand your sitch better. Do you have your own thread that I can comment further? I do think your situation seems a little different than most.
It doesn't help that from what I have learned (and I snooped A LOT at the beginning), OW is actually a nice person and my H always told her we were done and he would never come back since I was abusive to him. He has told me that OW pushes him to get along with me and if it wasn't for her, our R would be a lot worse and she wants to be a good influence in my kids lives. Cannot compete with that right now...
seems to me, if she were such a "nice person" she wouldn't be taking another woman's husband. so he told her you are "abusive" and that isn't true, right? yet she conveniently believes it, even though by now she should have realized he is lying. all the rest ("pushes him to get along with me" etc) is just - she is stealing what is yours, and giving you the crumbs.
Well, what's interesting to me is, if she DOES believe this, then why would she be pushing him to have a greater and better relationship with KG? And if she DOESN'T believe it, then why does she claim to be in love with a liar -- someone that would lie about his children's OWN MOTHER?
I think I might be getting to the point where I would switch to the Starsky way very soon because I'm not sure how much more "plan A" I have in me at this point.
"The Starsky way" -- lol!!! That gave me a chuckle this morning. Actually, it's not my way -- a "tough love" stance is either fully, or part of, most infidelity authors' plan. Whether it's MWD's "After the Last Resort Technique," Harley's "Plan B" or Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough," most of the things that I recommend to some people aren't really unique. However, if I had to summarize my own personal approach, it would be this (which I copied and pasted here from my personal archives):
Throughout all of these "tough stances," I maintained a "loving detachment" towards my wayward wife. Oh, we had our moments -- three or four real blow-ups -- but for the most part, we managed to keep things civil. I laid out some boundaries (no family finances used to enable your affair, no TMing or phoning OM from inside our home, no TMing or phoning OM in front of our sons, from ANYWHERE, if you're going to come home after 1am, don't bother coming home, etc.), and I must say, she respected them almost completely.
The "loving" part of "loving detachment" comes easier for you, trust me, when you maintain full intel ("snooping") and you hear and see the things that I heard and saw. But I did try to "shine a light back towards the marriage, even as I never wavered from my Main Boundary ("I will not live in an open marriage") and my sub-boundaries mentioned above. I would do occasional loving Acts of Service for my wife, such as pulling her car in the garage late at nite, or covering her with a blanket when she fell asleep on the couch, kissing her on the forehead, etc.
I believe that this "hybrid" approach -- aggressive confrontation & exposure, firm boundaries, cut off all financial enabling, strong legal stance; coupled with DBing principles such as GAL, "be the better option," 180s, etc. -- is what works best when there is active infidelity involved.
Reasonable people may disagree, but this is what worked for me, and this is also what I have seen work in my time on these boards, as well as my study of literally thousands of affairs.
