14 Months Secret Separation: talking mediation

[Accuray]

I don't know Ad, you've turned a blind eye to his "secret motivations" by choice, and now you're feeling that your DB efforts have been ineffective WRT influencing H, even though you clearly really appreciate what they've done for you.

As we've seen on so many threads here, if his secret is that he's "in love" with someone else then you had no chance at all to draw him back to you regardless of how well you DB'd -- all you could do is tread water and not make things worse, and you've done that.

I identify with you and how you think in many ways, but one way we are significantly different is that I could not let the question of his secret reasons go unresolved. I admire you for having that self control, but I also think you are struggling to understand something that could be made clear.

Why do I want to win back an H that doesn't miss or want an emotional connection?

I have spent more time thinking about this than I like to admit. I think what it comes down to is romantic love and chemistry -- something no one claims to understand the source of. You cannot will yourself to be attracted to someone, and sadly you can't will yourself to being unattracted to someone either. That's why detachment is so hard -- you can't just wake up and convince yourself that you are no longer attracted to your spouse.

Here's the thing -- if you look at how they look, act, and treat you now, you probably would NOT be attracted to them if you could see them with a stranger's eyes.

I think when you fall in love as a young person and decide to marry, you fall in love with the person, the "idea of the person", and the potential the person represents for you. Over time, your feelings are colored by the "idea of the person" that you retain, the potential of what the person can represent to you, as well as your accumulated joint happy memories. Therefore you see them as a package, the sum of which is greater than the individual parts.

I think that's how it works anyway. When I look at W I don't see a 45 year old woman, I see the 28 year old woman I met, the mother of my children, the person I shared my honeymoon and some great vacations with, the person I moved into our first house with etc, and I'm as much in love with that package as I am in love with the person.

That's why I think we want to "win back" our undeserving WAS -- you love the potential that exists to forge an emotional connection with this guy -- you believe that if he does eventually "get it" it will be wonderful, and it's somehow attractive to pursue that even in the face of terrible adversity.

Accuray

[Takevowsserious]

Accuray,

I completely agree on your take as to why we would want someone who seemingly does not want us.

If we start our thinking by remembering that they probably had a fair amount of time before bomb drop to separate themselves from us emotionally and become "unattracted" to us, it makes a lot more sense.

Their feelings didn't change overnight, and neither will ours.

I am still attracted to my husband physically. He's a good looking guy. But, I am NOT attracted to the person he has become or the poor choices he has made.

I'm sure there are many of us that hold on to hope for that potential to reconnect with the person we love so dearly.

Thanks for your post, it was very helpful to me today.

[adinva]

There's a lot to think about there, from both of you. Thank you both for posting on my thread.

CV, I think there's a lot missing from the thought you were mulling over, "Why is it that whenever people love something, they either have to own it or f--k it or consume it?" I feel like that's not true WHENEVER people love. I guess the thing that's missing is the other person. Some people love, and ML, and it's more than a f--k, to both of them. It's not ownership, it's giving. When it's good. I believe in that. In non-romantic terms, many people love nature without owning, consuming, or otherwise ruining it, and add to it and share it. I think your thought provoking phrase is a leading question because it leaves this out and therefore I believe is false. Examples, I love my dogs but I don't want more than 2 (or maybe 3?) because they'll be more than I can care for; I can go care for more at the shelter without sacrificing my 2's quality of life. I love my kids but I know I can't grasp them and own them; hard as it may be I know the loving thing to do is teach them and let them go. So where were we going with this? I forget...

It's been a long time since I loved someone and let them go so I'm not sure I can predict, but I believe I will not always love my H. I have somehow sort of shut off my feelings for him romantically so that I can live side by side with him as we discuss getting divorced. I found this process painful and I want a clean break so my kids and I can move on. I may or may not be able to say that "I'll always love him in some way" but I really kind of doubt it. Love is a choice, choose not to love for long enough and I suppose it will die. It is in my best interest to move on if he's moving on. I don't believe in soulmates, I gave him my all and he kind of crapped on it, and I've lost quite a bit of respect and admiration for him that I once had.

You said:

It seems obvious to me that your H still loves you, based on him still doing things around the house or trying to make sure you make wise investment decisions (aka. controlling.) It doesn't sound like he is being cruel or vindictive. It sounds like he has been unable to work out a way to enjoy/appreciate your company or living with you. This is not a reflection on you personally, just a reflection on the combination.

That's an interesting take on him, and one he'd beg to differ from. But I'll accept that he is being a very decent guy albeit he is splitting up our family. He is absolutely not being cruel or vindictive. And I totally agree that his inability to work out a way to be with me *as I am now* is a reflection on the combination of his and me, and I most of the time don't take it personally anymore. Sometimes I still do, because I feel like if anyone could be perfect for him it's me; however that's my perception and is not his.

You asked what am I trying to save. Well, when something in your family gets broken and threatens the existence of the intact family, you need to try to repair it. You shouldn't just say, well, I'll be better off next time, and throw in the towel. So I'm trying to create an environment as long as I can, where it is possible for us to repair what has been broken. That doesn't mean get back what was, because it's been broken for a long time. It can't be done without him though, and eventually I have to accept the reality that he doesn't want to and isn't going to. That could be when the divorce goes through, or sooner, or much later. It seems to be a different point for everyone.

I'm just giving it a lot of thought lately and my current thinking is that I'm going to respect his wishes and be done when the divorce is done. What I'm still holding onto: hope for our family. We still haven't even told the kids. All of this is still completely reversible.

Accuray, hey, thanks for posting too! Secret motivations = affair? maybe. I kind of doubt it. I have wondered if his old EA will turn up shortly after our D. However it's been pointed out to me that all the time he's spending here and then with his friend and friend's son would suggest that his AP is veeeerrrry understanding and low maintenance. He can't be seeing her much.

Maybe H's friend has been a cover for him to spend time with her. That seems like a long shot to me.

Maybe she's someone he works with. I don't know. He's so very hard to get along with and so fussy I can't imagine him seeing a future with another woman. But I don't follow these lines of thought much at all because there isn't a single thing I'd have done differently if there was or wasn't an OW. I've been working on being the better option no matter what: whether I'm up against a female, a male, complete solitude, or his job, or a MLC.

I really don't know if I agree with you about romantic love and chemistry. I've heard of women who were not physically attracted to a man until they got to know him and he was wonderful and charming and funny or some other combination that she fell in love with completely. I believe it can happen. I hope it can. I noticed during my marriage I was almost never attracted to any other man at all, not counting Roger Daltrey, but very attracted to my H.

On the converse, during this painful year I've been on A/Ds and have managed to sleep next to my H and occasionally see him walk around butt-naked and I don't feel a spark for him. We struggled with this for a while, first me LD then him LD and now I guess we're both LD, because our love tanks are completely empty. So attraction can be shut off. It's not completely outside my control. And I believe it can be nurtured and the flames fanned again.

I agree with you that you love a whole person, including your shared past and what you know about their history and how you feel about that, and your dreams of the future. I married a guy who was smart, funny, ambitious, naive, ready to take on the world. Who he became is more jaded and cynical, sees the glass half empty, angrier, but still sometimes that funny guy peeks out. Who he might be in 20 more years, who knows. I didn't marry a statue I expected we'd change back and forth and in unpredictable ways. But once he told me if I gained weight he'd not divorce me but we just wouldn't have sex much anymore...and I knew then that my H had a different kind of love for me, more of a surface love, that didn't go into my soul or value my whole being, and I was disappointed about that.

There are more parts to why I want back my WAS, but not if he remains undeserving, only if I see hope that he can somehow learn to be a whole partner to me. These include: the value of an intact family for my kids, the financial and physical aspect of the life we built together, which is more that the sum of what we'll have when we split it up in the D, my upbringing and belief in marriage and family as inherently valuable. I really don't want to be divorced. But I can't stop it.

Before, there were lots of times when I confided to a friend to vent and then felt better, but left my friend wondering why I wanted to stay in the marriage. I always felt better and was able to forgive and go on, and I felt that it was my duty and responsibility to stay and make the best of it. I honestly don't feel that way anymore. Enough else has been broken, that if I see an honorable out and no hope of improvement, I'll take the out.

[BklynMom]

I understand your point about finding an honorable out if their is no hope for improvement. And certainly you can not have a marriage without a emotional connection.

In my sitch I see my H as having had a breakdown of some kind. Or like an alcoholic his on some type of manic binge, but his current behavior is inconsistant with the man I married. I see my H as sick and diseased and the only possible cure is my detachment. If I can detach and move on, my H can not blame me for his disease and their is a possiblity that he find a cure within himself.

The truth in my case is that this was never about my bad behavior, my H just used that as an excuse it was more about my H not being able to handle the stresses of his life.

Do you believe your H battling an illness??

[Accuray]

Secret motivations = affair? maybe. I kind of doubt it. I have wondered if his old EA will turn up shortly after our D. However it's been pointed out to me that all the time he's spending here and then with his friend and friend's son would suggest that his AP is veeeerrrry understanding and low maintenance. He can't be seeing her much.

I didn't say it had to be an affair, only that he may be "in love" with someone else. That doesn't have to be reciprocated. My W's first EA was with a coworker she was infatuated with, she spent all her time thinking about him and was very much in love with him, despite the fact that he lives in another country and really only talked to her about work. The point is, if H's heart is somewhere else, then he is closed off to anything and everything you might do. At that point, no matter how much you become the better choice, you have to wait until the infatuation has run it's course. If he has limited access or it's not reciprocated, that can last a long time -- years.

...there isn't a single thing I'd have done differently if there was or wasn't an OW. I've been working on being the better option no matter what: whether I'm up against a female, a male, complete solitude, or his job, or a MLC.

I know that, your DB efforts, your introspection, and your personal growth have been nothing short of amazing. Although you are not saying as much, what I'm reading between the lines is some angst over the fact that you don't understand why H hasn't responded at all. I believe that bothers everyone who gets stuck in limbo. For me, I found some peace in understanding WHY my efforts yielded no improvement with W. Maybe that knowledge would give you some peace too, maybe not. You don't *need* me or anyone else to give you answers, you're very self sufficient in that regard, I'm just trying to share what has helped me to achieve some measure of peace lately.

I really don't know if I agree with you about romantic love and chemistry. I've heard of women who were not physically attracted to a man until they got to know him and he was wonderful and charming and funny or some other combination that she fell in love with completely. I believe it can happen. I hope it can. I noticed during my marriage I was almost never attracted to any other man at all, not counting Roger Daltrey, but very attracted to my H.

I love that you don't agree because I really like to dig into this further. I've been putting lots of thought here. There are many types of love, but for marriage there are two useful types to think about -- romantic love and companionate love. Romantic love = "I'm in love with you", companionate love = "I love you".

I definitely think you can will yourself to feel companionate love -- that's a choice for sure. That's a decision. I do NOT believe you can will yourself to feel romantic love, that's something that happens to you. You can certainly make a decision to work towards romantic love, but you can't just will it to happen. It also may not sustain itself as a constant, it will come and go in a long term relationship.

WRT your example above, you're focusing on physical attraction, and that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about that spark you feel for someone that means you're attracted to them. It could be 100% personality, but there is *something* there that pulls you like a magnet.

I do know people who got into marriages with people they were not attracted to, but they convinced themselves that the person was a good enough match that attraction didn't matter. "He's good looking, has a good job, is good with kids, and likes animals, and I'm at the age where I want to get married -- good enough"

The other end of the spectrum is people who fall in love with someone who is obviously a bad choice for them but marry them anyway because of the passion. The guy is a deadbeat, has a drinking problem, treats her like crap, but she's hanging in there because there's just something about him.

I think both of these situations are going to be extra challenging in the long haul. When I look at my friends, the ones who have the "best" marriages in my view are cases where the natural companionate match is very good, *and* the spark exists -- that seems to be an exception, but in that case, it's just not going to be as much work to keep it going.

It seems that in most cases, either there's a lack of passion, or a lack of companionate match, and lots of effort needs to go into dealing with those gaps.

If you ever want to get really depressed, Google "My [husband/wife] was never in love with me". It seems that in cases where the romantic love was NEVER there, the top eventually blows off the pressure cooker no matter how good everything else is going -- it's like a caged soul. I believe people yearn to feel attraction, it feels good to want, and I do not believe you can create those feelings by convincing yourself to love someone who you don't feel a spark for.

So attraction can be shut off. It's not completely outside my control. And I believe it can be nurtured and the flames fanned again.

Are you talking about attraction, or sex drive? Sex drive can clearly be turned off, and A/D's do a good job of that, but I do not agree that you can "turn off" attraction. Your relationship can no longer be worth the work and pain, and your resentment can overshadow your attraction and begin to inform your thoughts and behavior, but if your WAS suddenly came back to you in a loving, credible, way, willing to make the deep emotional connection you were looking for, do you really think you could turn off your feelings about that and turn your back on it without feeling any pain? I don't think so.

But once he told me if I gained weight he'd not divorce me but we just wouldn't have sex much anymore...and I knew then that my H had a different kind of love for me, more of a surface love, that didn't go into my soul or value my whole being, and I was disappointed about that.

I'm going to shift gears here -- men say stupid, immature stuff from time to time. (1) they may not mean it in the moment, it may be a "brain fart", (2) they may be trying to hurt you because of some way you hurt them that you're not even aware of, (3) they may feel they're losing power in the relationship, (4) they may have read some "make your wife a nympho" book that said women like being insulted and treated badly, (5) they may have meant it in the moment, but a week later they may feel differently and don't think to tell you because they've forgotten about it.

Early on in my marriage after we had our second son, I was exhausted. I felt a deep obligation to make sure my kids were happy. I would get on the floor and play with them every night, I'd read to them, I'd sit with them, take them to the park, make them laugh, etc. It didn't come easily or naturally to me, but I thought it was important, and what I "should" do, and my W wasn't doing it, so I did it, and it drained me. By the time the kids went to bed I was physically and emotionally spent and just needed an hour of "me" quiet time before I went to bed.

At some point during that period, my W came to me and said she needed more from me -- more attention for her, more connection. I told her that I didn't have it to give, and that what I was giving had to be good enough.

She, like you, interpreted that to mean that I did not love her the way she needed to be loved, and that the answer I gave was "now and forever", and didn't need to be revisited, and she mourned that hope for a different marriage.

For my part, I forgot about the conversation -- it probably just reflected how I was feeling that night. I didn't spend a week thinking about it. I knew at the time my answer made her feel badly, but the next day she seemed better and I was back on the gerbil wheel with work and the kids.

The point is, I said something dumb and insensitive, but it was in the moment, and if she asked me the next week, or maybe even a few hours later I might have said something different.

My point is, what your H said was stupid, but don't read into it that he only had a surface love for you and didn't value your whole being -- he simply could have said something stupid in the moment coming from a place of fear or insecurity. Don't let that taint your memory of the love you had with each other.

In terms of your plans going forward, not wanting to take him back unless you see some change and growth etc., I agree with all of that. You and I are on parallel paths there in many ways. I guess my point is that you can make that decision in spite of continued attraction. Attraction does not bind you to your course, it just makes dropping the rope more difficult, that's all.

Accuray

[StubbornDyke]

I dunno, Accuray. I think that feelings, including "sparks" really do come from thoughts, however quick or subconscious. I think the problems come from thinking that those things should just happen. That leads to thinking things could be more magical and then feeling deficient.

IMO, people who think that any feelings just happen are never satisfied for long because, yup, feelings come and go. Problems and solutions are in the thinking. Focusing on feelings, as if they fall out of the sky, gets nowhere and neatly avoids potential solutions.

[adinva]

Acc, that IS part of the memory of the love we had for each other. H's was just kind of stunted and superficial. I don't think he ever said anything he wouldn't now claim to have meant. He is VERY intentional and self-controlled.

I'll think some more about the other input and write later. Thanks all!

Oh but Acc there was one other thing you said, if he's in love with someone else I have to wait until it's over. You meant ...to see any progress in my sitch. I don't have to wait any longer than I want to wait. I love and value my family and my marriage but I have put in a lot of time and effort. If my H admitted to me that he's been in love with someone all this time, I can't see that being the turnaround moment for me where I'm willing to keep waiting indefinitely. I suspect he IS in love, with himself. (OK put that one down in the zinger file.)

On the good news front for some reason he decided to take time off work to do something fun with all of us and we're going zip lining Friday. On the bad news front he was pissy because S12 didn't act excited enough to suit him. But on the good news front I think it will be fun.

[ces67]

LOVE zip-lining! Have fun! My W took me to do that for my 40th. It was a blast. My S13 is big enough now to do it so I'm hoping to take him this fall or spring.

OK, so on all the deeper stuff, I'll just through this in. I love my W. I feel it and choose it each day. Throughout our M, my W has struggled a bit with her weight. I noticed it but it was never an issue with me. It didn't change my love or attraction for her. One of the biggest compliments she ever gave me was that I made her feel beautiful when she didn't feel that way about herself (probably a deeper issue there that I didn't pick up on at the time).

Now, my W has dropped a lot of weight, exercises regularly and dresses a good bit more provocatively. Physically, she is very attractive, IMO. However, I find that I am less attracted to her now than ever because of how she acts. Honestly, I have lost a lot of respect for her based upon her actions and choices. If we were to meet today as if it were the first time, I doubt I'd be drawn to her. Why? One of the first things that I noticed about my W was her smile. It said something beautiful about who she was. That same smile is rarely seen anymore. Once in a while I see it peak out (Mother's day was the last time I remember).

Not sure I have a point, just my own experience. Even though I am less attracted to my W, for me, I still have a commitment and I choose to love her each day. And since we're throughout out variations of the types of love, I'll throw in the word "agape". The Greeks had several words for love while we lump our feelings for ice cream, cars, tv shows & people all into the same word.

"agape" is basically choosing to love someone with no expectations of having that love returned. Its a gift. Its there despite faults, mistakes, flaws, etc... That's what I promised my W when we got married. Its what carries me through when "Eros" (romantic love) or Phileo (companionship love) can falter at times. Obviously marriage works best when both spouses use this as foundation, but if one doesn't maybe the ongoing use of agape from one can help ride the storm until the other comes around. And if not, I still feel better about myself for trying.

[Crazyville]

Acc, you DO put some time into this, don't you. Wherever you finally land, you should probably write a book.

So, do you believe that attraction changes? I KNOW it does for material things. The dress that I had to have back in 1987, I wouldn't be caught dead in today. I've already bought and sold my dream car and have my eye on another. Do you think it can work the same for people?

Also, do you think that physical attraction is directly affected by knowing the person? For example, I used to find Tom Cruise very attractive. Now I just think he's weird. Yes, he's still nice looking, but not at all "attractive" to me. In your reference to Ad's H coming back and reengaging, do you think it's possible that she might just not have that attraction for him anymore, even if? Too much water under the bridge perhaps? You can't un-know what you know. There's a big difference between seeing the value of M and the family unit and commitment, etc., and finding someone attractive. And what happens when you just can't see the potential anymore?

Ad, you're right. I shouldn't have included "everyone" in my thought about when people love something. It was an incomplete thought process and I don't know where it was going. You are so deep and introspective and so effective at verbalizing your position, yet I still was feeling like your friend that you vent on that wonders why you're still with him. I also realize that you're just in a tough spot and there is no on/off switch, or "easy" button as someone else mentioned. Thanks for throwing in on my questions.

[adinva]

My S14 took off in my car yesterday with his friend. He's never driven before, and obviously knew this was bad. He wasn't even sneaky about it, just super pumped that he drove! He brought the car right back into the driveway a few minutes later.

I sometimes feel unprepared to raise a spirited boy child.

I told S and his friend a few of the major reasons they might not have considered why this was a dangerous thing to do, let them know how angry I was, and drove his friend home instead of to the lacrosse field where they wanted me to take them.

When H got home I told S14 I expected him to go in and explain to dad what he did, and apologize for stealing our car. H was really angry but when we were alone I asked him what he thought and he said he didn't want to make any decisions while he was still angry.

Wow. Just what my IC said. So happy to see this progress in H. I thought he would beat the boy (not that I have good reason to think this) or break some of his stuff (I do have reason to think this) - bottom line is I just don't know WHAT H will do when he flies off the handle. This change was remarkable. I told him at the time that I thought that was really good.

S wasn't allowed out the rest of the day although he had plans. And yet somehow when I went in to say good morning to him, there was another big pair of bare feet on the floor next to his bed. I asked S who that was and he sleepily looked over and said, oh, that's R. I feel like my kid is a falcon spiraling farther and farther from me as he takes charge of his life and tests his limits. It's frustrating and scary. At least I can say he's not repressed like I felt as a kid.