One of the main issues in our M was that my H felt unapprecaited and abandoned. We also fought a lot and I had a short fuse. His needs were NOT met by me . . .
KG,
Again, I apologize but I don't know your sitch other than your recent posts here on this thread. DO YOU genuinely believe these were VALID prior (pre-husband's-affair) marital complaints? WERE you unappreciative, abandoning and uncaring toward meeting your husband's emotional needs? Did he ever (even often) express these things to you BEFORE he had hia affair?
Or are these just the classic "re-writing of marital history" that goes on in nearly all affairs? Big, BIG difference, and I'm just trying to better understand your sitch.
If they choose the OM/OW how will they see that you have changed as a person, if you're not going to be around them?
I will admit, it's easier for a betrayed husband (than wife) to pull this off, as women seem to be FAR better at the whole "trust me, it WILL get back to them" backchannel thing. But even when it's a cheating husband/betrayed wife, I do think that things get back to the wayward husband about the improvements that the wife is making back at home.
I also believe that you can demonstrate your changes during the brief encounters you have with them, as Denver describes in his most recent post. Not only in how you directly interact with them, but in how you allow them to see you interacting with others (your kids, your friends, neighbors, her family/friends, etc.).
If my wayward wife sees me being a great listener, empathetic and charming towards other women at, say, a block party (or if she gets wind that I was), it will register that I've made positive changes . . . without me having to charm HER while she's cheating on me.
I will admit, it's easier for a betrayed husband (than wife) to pull this off, as women seem to be FAR better at the whole "trust me, it WILL get back to them" backchannel thing.
Oh, and the "GOOD news" part of this gender dynamic is, if you think Denver's WIFE pursued him every single time he pulled away and went dim/dark on her, wait'll you see how well this works with wayward MEN. Because us guys are natural pursuers, and we want what we can't have, and we are competitive sonsabitches who VALUE THE THRILL OF THE CHASE.
KG first I want to apologise for hijacking your post. What you initially wrote expressed a lot of what I feel and wonder about that I have a hard time expressing. It hit home. I'm sorry.
Denver, thank you for your post. Your story is inspiring and I am very happy for you. :-)
Ok-- I get it. I do understand the concept of no pursuit while H is with OW. I really do. And I admit, before I found DB I was doing that. He did not miss me, I am sure he lost a lot of respect for me, and to be honest, after I started DB unrealised I had lost a lot of respect for myself as well.
I found DB in May. My sitch has been going on since 2010. I stopped pursuit immediately. I went complete NC. It took two weeks and he contacted me about the kids.
I wont go into the details of my sitch here but H is working on a project in another town. So he has not been with us in the same town since April. I do not see him ( there were a couple of times he met us during the summer when we were abroad).
I remained NC. I let him initiate contact with regards to any business matters or the kids. I understand that I need to outlast the affair if there is a chance ( unless like chatter said it is an exit affair, which I had not thought about before).
I do not want to give him myself while he is with OW. I have started to realise and have faith in myself that I am and can be a better person. I am regainging my self esteem.I am doing a lot of work on that.
I will not allow R with OW in the picture. No, he has not expressed any missing of me or desire to come back, but I was pursuing him from day one of our sitch. It's only since DB that I have been NOT pursuing, etc. It's only now that he MAY start missing me, rethinking...etc.
But he is not here, so the only chances he may see that are when we do have these brief convos about the kids or money matters. And the couple of times we saw each other over the summer, I DB' d my a$$ off.
I am warm, I am upbeat, I am more genuine, positive. I am seeing beyond my own nose. My kids don't see me crying anymore, miserable. I am not drinking myself to sleep anymore. I am reengaging in MY life again. In my kids' lives again.
IF h decided that he was curious about what was going on with me, if OW was out, then I would consider R. For me, for my kids, for the family I always wanted to create.
By no means do I believe that just because OW may be out of the picture one day he will come running back. And even if he did, I know that is still not enough to R.
I guess with all of this distance between us, anxiety sometimes builds... Curiosity builds...' should I do something different?' I think. But we learn. And we listen to those that have walked our paths.
Maybe I am being naive because my sitch has been going on for so long...however since DB I feel like something different has happened. The dynamics have changed because I have changed. And those changes are becoming permanent and real. For te better. Finally.
I am trying to create more time. More time to see if DB and my changes can peak curiosity with him.
I feel there is something starsky is saying that I am still not getting. I don't disagree with you about pursuit. And Denver, yes, the few moments i speak with H i am upbeat, friendly and attractive. Maybe we are differing on timelines?
Time will tell?
And again, I never thought about the concept of an exit affair.
Thank you all for your time and perspectives. I am so appreciative of it all. And KG, apologies again...
TPS Me: 44 H: 42 M14 T17 S10 D7 10/10 H moves out after death of his father-same month 21/04/12 H is 'DONE' 04/05/12 OW/PA confirmed (rumors from 2010) July '14 H ends affair May '15 H moves back home
If they choose the OM/OW how will they see that you have changed as a person, if you're not going to be around them?
I will admit, it's easier for a betrayed husband (than wife) to pull this off, as women seem to be FAR better at the whole "trust me, it WILL get back to them" backchannel thing. But even when it's a cheating husband/betrayed wife, I do think that things get back to the wayward husband about the improvements that the wife is making back at home.
I also believe that you can demonstrate your changes during the brief encounters you have with them, as Denver describes in his most recent post. Not only in how you directly interact with them, but in how you allow them to see you interacting with others (your kids, your friends, neighbors, her family/friends, etc.).
If my wayward wife sees me being a great listener, empathetic and charming towards other women at, say, a block party (or if she gets wind that I was), it will register that I've made positive changes . . . without me having to charm HER while she's cheating on me.
Starsky
I know what Jack is getting at here. I agree with Starsky, who seems to agree with me!
However, I should have noted in my last post that during my initial period of darkout with W, right after she left me, that I did NOT KNOW that her R with OM has become a PA.
Even so, I did not have much contact with her during that period. I went pretty much dark and waited for her to initiate contact.
I used the short, brief contacts with W to show her that I was making changes. This occurred when she'd call me or text me about something stupid, when I picked up SS to hang out with him a few times and when I dropped xmas presents for SS to W. I also used brief encounters that I had with her family to express that I was changing or that I 'got it'.
At one point, prior to me learning that W's R with OM had become PA, I asked her to do a couple of things and I was lucky that she accepted. A movie with SS and then a day to watch the SB. I used these opportunities as well.
HAD I known at that time that W's R with OM had become PA, I don't know what I would have done... would I have invited her to do those two things? I simply don't know. It would have much more difficult for me to put myself in that position, that much I do know.
Almost immediately after learning of the PA, we went into that first period of trying to work on things... after that, my boundary was 'no OM if me' (although wishy washy enforcement at first).
So that's full disclosure.
Again, as I've stated many times recently, I strongly believe that there is no 'right' answer, that each sitch is unique, and that we all have to apply DB as a guideline to what we believe will 'work' for our own situations.
Generally speaking though, I don't think that I would advise spending time with a WAS who is actively dating or having an A with an OP.
If you were a real d!ck or b!tch with WAS prior to the S and the A, you may have to suck it up and open yourself up to spending some time with the WAS in the beginning. I don't know. Depends on what you can tolerate I suppose. I certainly wouldn't advise doing it for very long though.
I think this goes back to the Plan A/Plan B stuff again.
Now, what is your opinion Jack?
M 43 X 38 T 13 W moves out of home 11/2010 Roller coaster from hell 2/2011-5/2012 I request divorce 5/2012 W moves home 6/2012 Good time 7/2012 - 1/2015 I leave 3/2016 process of divorce
I view longer interactions with the spouse as potentially (If the LBS can handle it) being more benficial in showing changes. Instilling doubt in the WAS, and not showing them that a happy, epathetic LBS might be better off without them or agree with their choices.
I, like you Starsky and Denver, and many other vets agree that "I will not be in your life" boundary is vital and required for a marriage to mend.
So, we agree there and always have.
I think we disagree on the when. And I don't have any faith in back channel information on something this important, in so much that the information isn't telephone game screwed up by the time it gets to the spouse.
Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis
Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans
Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK
I will admit, I am starting to realise that I do love him enough to let him go. But yes, my fear of loss is holding me back from letting go completely.
NOT that I pursue. What he sees is the DB busting. No pursuit. No fear. Friendly, upbeat, warm, validating. He no longer sees, hears or reads about the old busting.
And the remnants of the old busting are just for me and this board. But hey are remnants.
I have thought about whether or not I am fighting for the M and my family or for the fear of loss.
If I am honest right now, its both. I fear the loss of my family again. I don't want my kids to live with the emptiness I lived with. And I don't want their parents to be miserable like mine were.
Starsky - I so appreciate the challenges you present, because I want to dig deeper. I have not thought of a timeline to be honest. I want to outlast to see if there is a chance.
TPS Me: 44 H: 42 M14 T17 S10 D7 10/10 H moves out after death of his father-same month 21/04/12 H is 'DONE' 04/05/12 OW/PA confirmed (rumors from 2010) July '14 H ends affair May '15 H moves back home
I view longer interactions with the spouse as potentially (If the LBS can handle it) being more benficial in showing changes. Instilling doubt in the WAS, and not showing them that a happy, epathetic LBS might be better off without them or agree with their choices.
I, like you Starsky and Denver, and many other vets agree that "I will not be in your life" boundary is vital and required for a marriage to mend.
So, we agree there and always have.
I think we disagree on the when. And I don't have any faith in back channel information on something this important, in so much that the information isn't telephone game screwed up by the time it gets to the spouse.
I think that it depends on the specifics of the situation. For me, I have a hard time imagining me being a part of my W's life knowing that she was also with OM.
After this conversation, I now think that I am lucky that I did not know of the PA at the beginning.
M 43 X 38 T 13 W moves out of home 11/2010 Roller coaster from hell 2/2011-5/2012 I request divorce 5/2012 W moves home 6/2012 Good time 7/2012 - 1/2015 I leave 3/2016 process of divorce
Ok-- I get it. I do understand the concept of no pursuit while H is with OW. I really do. And I admit, before I found DB I was doing that. He did not miss me, I am sure he lost a lot of respect for me, and to be honest, after I started DB unrealised I had lost a lot of respect for myself as well. I found DB in May. My sitch has been going on since 2010. I stopped pursuit immediately. I went complete NC. It took two weeks and he contacted me about the kids.
. . .
I remained NC. I let him initiate contact with regards to any business matters or the kids. I understand that I need to outlast the affair if there is a chance ( unless like chatter said it is an exit affair, which I had not thought about before).
I do not want to give him myself while he is with OW. I have started to realise and have faith in myself that I am and can be a better person. I am regainging my self esteem.I am doing a lot of work on that.
I will not allow R with OW in the picture. No, he has not expressed any missing of me or desire to come back, but I was pursuing him from day one of our sitch. It's only since DB that I have been NOT pursuing, etc. It's only now that he MAY start missing me, rethinking...etc.
But he is not here, so the only chances he may see that are when we do have these brief convos about the kids or money matters. And the couple of times we saw each other over the summer, I DB' d my a$$ off.
. . .
By no means do I believe that just because OW may be out of the picture one day he will come running back. And even if he did, I know that is still not enough to R.
. . .
Maybe I am being naive because my sitch has been going on for so long...however since DB I feel like something different has happened. The dynamics have changed because I have changed. And those changes are becoming permanent and real. For te better. Finally.
Then I think you should consider "May 2012" (and not 2010) as your starting point, and give yourself some sort of shorter, yet realistic internal (not communicated to husband) deadline. I usually recommend 3-6 months, if you can last that long (I couldn't).
