One of the main issues in our M was that my H felt unapprecaited and abandoned. We also fought a lot and I had a short fuse. His needs were NOT met by me and OW has done a great job at meeting them.
So if I wait to address the distance issue until the affair ends, I might never get a chance, since that R is only getting stronger every day. In other words, if I just detach and go dim, then he will never see changes and get to believe that I can meet his needs better than OW. His decisions to leave will be validated by my "doing more of the same" by keeping my distance.
From what I understood in this thread, Denver's W returned when she trusted him and came to believe he could meet her needs better than OM.
So my dilemma is how would I be able to show a stubborn, resolute H that our M can work by going dark and detaching, thus leaving OW to continue fulfilling his every need.
This ^^^^ is a very, very tough (and very, very COMMON) question. It's a valid concern, and it goes to the whole core of what MWD teaches about "pursuit." But the sad fact is, that while he is emotionally infatuated (and perhaps now even thinks he's genuinely in love with) his OW, he's not going to be able to "see" your changes even if he were in front of you daily.
"Don't pursue" is VERY counter-intuitive, but it goes to the core of effectively DBing. The only advice I would have for you is to see if you can look for other ways for your husband to see that you are a changed woman in terms of being more appreciative generally. But if you try to directly show this to HIM (say, by way of Words of Affirmation or other compliments), he's only going to pull further away, in my opinion.
Do you think he has EVER -- in the past 20 months -- genuinely felt like he was in any real danger of LOSING YOU, emotionally?
I think you need to ask yourself, Why do you want to be with someone who -- for over a year and a half -- has demonstrated by way of an unrepentant long-term affair that he doesn't want to be with YOU?
Just some thoughts and maybe I need to see a different perspective...
Yes, he does not want to be with me. The me that I became in a time of crisis for me, a time of stress and tremendous change for us as a family.
That is who he saw and, still sees, when he left, and most likely still now.
Why? Because I love the man that I choose to start and raise a family with. The man that I moved to an unknown country for to start our marriage and family. To start a new life with. Because we have a family, two young kids. Because they have no voice to stand for their family, for their father that they deserve to have in their lives completely.
For them to be raised in a family that acts from love, not fear. for them not to have my experience of a broken family filled with anger and bitterness.
For me it's the chance. To see if we can get through this as a family, intact. A chance to work on this M and this R.
That's what I have been thinking. I don't want to be a doormat. I don't want to traumatise my kids or live unhappily. I dont want H to live unhappily either. And I am finally understanding that detaching is the way, no pursuit, etc.
But it's standing for the chance to see if we can R. In the meantime, I will do what we are here to do because I do believe in it and I believe this is my best shot for all of us. Even if we don't R, this will be the best I can give myself, my children and my H, whether he is H or exH.
For the first time in almost two years I finally feel like I can become the woman infant to become, the mother I want to be and the partner I want to be in a R. I know there is still a way to go...but I guess this is...why.....
TPS Me: 44 H: 42 M14 T17 S10 D7 10/10 H moves out after death of his father-same month 21/04/12 H is 'DONE' 04/05/12 OW/PA confirmed (rumors from 2010) July '14 H ends affair May '15 H moves back home
I know these are hard questions. They're SUPPOSED to be, and the answers I'm trying to elicit are for YOU, not for me (or anyone else). Just trying to get you to think about this from an outside perspective, because usually when we're so caught up in the middle of our sitches, we can't always see it clearly.
Quote:
For them to be raised in a family that acts from love, not fear.
In my experience, people in your situation are usually more afraid of letting go than they are of continuing to fight for the marriage. Are you sure that you're not operating out of fear now? It's no shame to admit that -- most of us do operate out of the very powerful "fear of loss" more than almost anything else.
I do respect your strong willingness to fight for your marriage and your family. I just want to challenge you to put SOME sort of an end-date on it, for your own emotional health and that of your kids.
He (a WAS) is possibly basing his experience on PAST behaviour.
Change yourself = new behaviour and possibly new reaction
IF
He NOTICES...
Therefore, as I interpret MWD and some situations of infidelity where LBS distance may have been the root... a different behaviour by the LBS might create a different reaction from the WAS...
So... GET HIS ATTENTION... which might be through POSITIVE contact (negative contact SHOULD be PAST behaviour).
Problem is... that MIGHT be MWD's "soft" approach or recommended by a coach... and then it's reported on this forum and immediately called "pursuit"...
IT IS NOT (IMHO) pursuit...
It is SIMPLY getting the WAS's attention in positive ways...
From what I understood in this thread, Denver's W returned when she trusted him and came to believe he could meet her needs better than OM.
So my dilemma is how would I be able to show a stubborn, resolute H that our M can work by going dark and detaching, thus leaving OW to continue fulfilling his every need.
On the other hand, I am not saying I will let him come and go as he pleases or that I would sleep with him if he wanted to. That is a personal boundary I would enforce. So where do I draw the line and how can I reconnect?
I hope I am making sense here. This is something I have been struggling with for a long time - boundaries vs. doing something different. I am glad it's being addressed in this great thread and I would welcome any feedback or further opinions anyone else may have.
I 100% agree with what Starsky said regarding this^^^.
I don't know either of your situations, but based on what I believe that you are saying, I think that maybe I need to distinguish my situation a bit here.
I did have the exact same problem. I had not met the emotional needs of my W bc I was emotional distant during our R/M. Details are in my threads, but it was pretty bad.
I also struggled with trying to balance doing my 180 regarding my emotional distance with dealing with an OM.
However, I STILL used distance to my benefit AND STILL never allowed OM to be in my W's life in any way as long as I was an active part of her life. Personally, I was not capable of that, but I also don't think that it was healthy for anyone involved. And it would not have helped my situation because, as Starsky pointed out, my W would never had a chance to miss me or think that she actually might lose me.
Periods of almost complete blackout: 1) immediately after she left; 2) End of May/Beg of June 2011; 3) August-Sept 2011; 4) end of Jan 2012; 5) May of 2012.
During each of those periods of time, except for January and May of 2012 (and even then she was talking to him) W was "dating" OM.
During the gaps in between those periods, W and I were hanging out a lot, dating, and trying to work towards W committing to R. But, she was NOT, having contact with OM. She did omit the truth a few times that I busted her on, which led to the periods of no contact.
Those periods of no contact occurred because my boundary was "I will not be a part of your life if there is ANY OM in your life".
The distinction between my sitch and what you two are describing is this:
I had the opportunity to show my W my changes because she allowed for those periods of time when she WANTED to work on our R/M and had decided that she was done with OM.
I was lucky that I got those opportunities. And this is where I think that Starsky always wanted to hit me upside the head... I allowed my W back into my life too easily. She would say that she was done with OM and that she wanted to work on us. I would want the opportunity to spend time with her to show her how good our M could be with my new found changes. This is where I struggled to balance things and with my boundaries.
But NOT when she was actively seeing OM.
During those dark out times, I would only have contact with my W when she initiated it or when I was setting something up to see my step son.
During those dark out times, I was waiting out the R with OM. I truly tried to work on detaching myself from W during those times. I knew that there was the possibility that her R with OM could grow and that it could ultimately result in her calling me to tell me that she was ready for a D. But I HAD to let this happen and let the cards fall as they would. As Starsky said, our S's are/were not going to see our changes as long as OP is involved.
I always had faith that I was the better man and that it was just a matter of time before W would see that and end things with OM. That is how I survived emotionally (but barely).
How can you show your H's 180s or that you are doing something different during periods where you remove yourself while they are with their OW's? Your only opportunities will be the brief encounters that you may have when they contact you, when you have contact re children, bills, or whatever. You use those brief encounters to be upbeat, happy, funny, attractive, and whatever else caused them to fall in love with you in the first place. But you DO NOT pursue.
This is how I handled it. And it was most important during the time right after my W left me. My contact with her would sometimes only be a minute or two. But I made sure that I was those things ^^^.
Each time that we had of those darkout periods, my W would end up initiating contact with me. A ridiculous text about how to make spaghetti sauce, about a sale at Banana Rep, whatever... then a little more contact... then she'd be saying that she missed me and loved me...
She came to me. I did not pursue her. I think that one possible mistake that I made was allowing her back in too easily.
So THAT is my point: You have to wait out the A's, if you want and can... and you have to let your H's come to you.
If they don't, then Chatterbug is probably correct... it is an exit A.
I know that I'm long winded, but I hope that made sense.
Denver
M 43 X 38 T 13 W moves out of home 11/2010 Roller coaster from hell 2/2011-5/2012 I request divorce 5/2012 W moves home 6/2012 Good time 7/2012 - 1/2015 I leave 3/2016 process of divorce
Also, to consider... how does the LBS know about the status of the A and OP, unless they are snooping... and being focused ON the infidelity... is "snooping by way of verifying"
The only thing one will ever know is... doing the same thing will change nothing...
MWD's messages are quite clear of, focus on oneself, change one's behaviours in positive ways, infidelity is a symptom, ignore the OP, allow the WAS to see the LBS' positive changes.
He (a WAS) is possibly basing his experience on PAST behaviour.
Change yourself = new behaviour and possibly new reaction
IF
He NOTICES...
Therefore, as I interpret MWD and some situations of infidelity where LBS distance may have been the root... a different behaviour by the LBS might create a different reaction from the WAS...
So... GET HIS ATTENTION... which might be through POSITIVE contact (negative contact SHOULD be PAST behaviour).
Problem is... that MIGHT be MWD's "soft" approach or recommended by a coach... and then it's reported on this forum and immediately called "pursuit"...
IT IS NOT (IMHO) pursuit...
It is SIMPLY getting the WAS's attention in positive ways...
And then...
back off a touch...
see if it results in pursuit by the WAS...
I am defining "pursuit" as MWD defines it (not how the forum does), in the context of her "Afer the Last Resort" technique.
Which, I would think, would be where KG should be after 20 months of a continuing, open, unrepentant affair.
AtLRT is after OTHER options have been tried, according to MWD.
Has KG and BO tried other efforts first? What were the results, regardless of time frame. That could simply be an indicator that other soft approaches weren't working. Being dim / dark / NC for 20 months would possibly have the same results.
If the WAS is in a 20 month R with the OP, then chances are, they've already decided they won't be in a R with the LBS. The LBS is therefore, stating the obvious to the WAS.
Basic question for the "I will not be in you life if he/she is" approach.
What if you're, as a person for the last few years, a dick/bitch when you issue that ulitmatum?
This is why I believe in a "dual-track" approach: you simultaneously work on NOT being a di*k/beotch, and becoming a better you, WHILE you enforce the hard "I will not be in your life while OM/OW is in yours" boundary.
