I see this happening and I still can't believe it's happening. I've got to keep reminding myself that I'm lucky to be getting a do-over, not to live my life with someone who doesn't want to be with me.
You can't assume that someone loves you and allow him to say he just doesn't "get into" things that show love. You need to ask for what you need that shows you love, and make decisions based on whether your request is respected and responded to.
Very true and so well said -- it's just that "making those decisions" is just oh so painful. WRT KD's comment, if your spouse refuses to speak your LL, I agree you can try to look for how they express love and accept that for what it is, but as someone who is in that place now, I believe two things:
1) It's a recipe for long term frustration and suffering
2) The reason your spouse won't speak your LL isn't because they're not capable, or "not into it", it's because they're not motivated. That lack of motivation is most likely rooted in lack of attraction. You're both going to be aware of that, and it's going to continue to push you apart.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Acc, I divided a lot of my thoughts into prebomb and postbomb. There's a whole world of ideas and lingo and ways of thinking that people who haven't had the experience of therapy or self-help books don't know about. They just don't occur naturally.
So for your #1, there's a difference between a spouse who "won't" and one who just doesn't naturally think to express love in your love language as you've clearly explained it to him/her. The former is indeed a recipe for long term frustration and suffering. To tell someone I need to hold hands now and then and they say "I won't do that" just seems like a nonstarter, almost cruel. I have a friend who is a psychologist so she has, trust me, very clearly told her husband she needs touching - just a quick hug when passing or a hand on a shoulder during the day - and she occasionally gets through and he tries harder, genuinely, and then after a while forgets again and gets reminded when she reaches a frustration level again. I could see this working because he genuinely wants to meet her needs and does try.
But to be able to express that clearly is a post-bomb ability. Before I was just confused about why my H didn't naturally just feel like I did about things, and there were tears, lectures, resentment, frustration, and finally I just accepted it and tried to hide it from my family and friends, and I took on the role of the person in the family who arranges any celebrating that's going to be done. I bought the cards and gifts for his mom, siblings, niece and nephews, and I planned the holidays for our kids. H has never heard of "love languages" and probably just wrote it all off to hormones (jk that's just a buddy joke).
Regarding #2 I agree my H isn't motivated. You think he was never really attracted to me? You think someone he wanted to have sex with more he would have brought flowers on her birthday? I don't think so, unless, as in #1, she has clearly explained that she needs xyz to be in a relationship and this relationship like this is not working out for her. I adapted to how H was, but he was attracted at one point. He lost that over the years of nitpicking each other and butting our heads against the wall of misunderstandings between us.
The lack of attraction isn't just going to push us apart, it's about the only thing that will force us apart. He was lame about celebrations, I accepted that. He was hypercritical, I learned to deal with that. He started avoiding me and being downright mean, I tried to understand and adapt to that but honestly was becoming a little alarmed. No overt behavior was going to get me to leave, so he must have resorted to his last available tool - this "attraction" that's just gone. I can't adapt to that.
I don't believe it's insurmountable, but he has to want to fix it. If he won't want to, it won't get fixed. And now that it's out in the open, I can't live with the knowledge that my H doesn't want me. When it was unspoken I was OK with struggling through.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
Journaling. Counseling yesterday was on my anger with H.
I don't usually feel angry with him, just sad and disappointed, and it is what it is, and he's doing what he feels he needs to do. But every now and then I think of a great "zinger" I'd like to say to him and I don't. I know it won't help to try to make him feel bad, but I asked my T why I feel this need to do that and what to do about it.
It comes from anger - I'd like to tell him this is idiotic, and then he rethinks it and realizes he doesn't want it. In the movies maybe, but it's not going to happen in my real life. And so really I just want to hurt him like he's hurting me. I think of these things because they'd make him feel like a jerk and then I'd feel understood and justified in my anger.
This is all thinking through feelings, not things I'm acting on or planning to. But what do I do with this apparent anger? I've gone for a swim or hike, or eaten Oreos, and that helps dissipate the anger but more in an avoidant way than I feel a productive way. T helped me sort this out.
Yes, I'm angry. Maybe I need to tell him, for my own self-esteem, to stand up for myself and say my piece. If that's the case, I should think about what I really want/need to say, and when it would have a chance of being heard. Maybe after the D is final.
I realized that's not really my purpose - I'm not suffering a lack of self-esteem, and I don't feel like saying my piece is what I was really looking for.
I really just still deny that this is happening, and I'm grasping for something that brings him back from the edge. In that case, a cutting quip is not going to be productive at all.
My T suggested that also since we're about to be negotiating settlement, perhaps there's a time and place for sharing my angry feelings when he should understand that I did not seek this D and do not want it, am about to take a decrease in quality of life for a few years because of his selfishness. She had much better words than I can remember. But the point was she didn't say it in a sarcastic, hurtful, or "zinger" kind of way, but in a sincere and objective and calm statement that he's in denial about the real effects of his choices.
The point is using your anger to identify your feelings, think carefully about the consequences and what your goal is, and use your words to achieve your goals rather than to inflict pain.
I really don't think I'm trying to use my words to get more in settlement. I wanted them to change his mind.
When I think about it more, there is no sign that he's considering changing his mind. He's cooperating on pulling all the papers for the financial planner. He's providing input on my new bank accounts and life insurance information.
The financial planner will require a contract and a sum of money to continue working with us on the separation and I felt at this point that it's a point-of-no-return where I'd just like to ask him, are you sure you want this? We're about to spend the first significant money, is this still what you want, before I commit to spending it?
Honestly, talking with T, I realized that I have no reason to think the answer is anything but Yes, I still want to D. I also have no reason not to commit the money. Whether we D or not, I'm already curious about her advice and what she sees that we can do with what we have, whether we're on track to have a comfortable retirement, whether we've made smart choices on our investments. So I don't think I'd value her input any less if H came around and decided to reconcile. Which means, it's not a point-of-no-return. I'll go ahead and sign the contract.
So, where that leaves me with my angry feelings. Keep exercising them away, keep thinking about what it is that I need to communicate and when it might have a chance of being heard. And how, a statement, a conversation, a letter? Or let it go? I know a zinger won't do anything but make me feel clever for a moment, and then make him feel angry back at me. Nonproductive.
My other conversation with T was about a long talk I had with MIL about what's going on with H, and how I let her blathering go because I felt because of her age and her need to feel like her son is a good person I didn't want to let on how hurt I was. T said I don't need to protect everyone else. I need to respect my own feelings and not put them aside to save MIL from hurt feelings. She said I could have told MIL: "I need you to know that I've been using great restraint to handle this with dignity and not make things worse, but it doesn't mean I'm not feeling very hurt about this D, which I do not want." It bothers me to think that my H's family will see how easily and quickly this went and how well we all handled it, and not know that I did not want it and that H really hurt me with his choices.
I had given up the idea of justifying myself to friends and family a long time ago as nonproductive. T pointed out that my history is to identify expressing my feelings as nonproductive and bury them. But sometimes you need to express them for yourself. I'm still thinking about this. I don't see the point of trying to get an 82 year old lady to think of her baby son as a selfish bad guy. Isn't it better to just stuff my feelings and stick to surface details when she has questions?
So that's about it with counseling. I'm reading codependent no more, and see myself on that spectrum but not to the extent the book is talking about. It's an interesting way of thinking though - I definitely absorbed myself with trying to control the feelings and actions of my family, and find that I do a lot better now of owning my stuff and letting them own theirs.
H and I have missed two Saturdays of morning talks and I'll ask him to talk with me again this weekend. We need to figure out where the bills will be paid from now that I've separated some of our checking account out into a new account in my name. We need to work on our spending plans. We need to rehousetrain Tex who seems to have developed a preference for our carpet over the lawn, and I googled how to do that and need to get agreement with H on how to proceed. I have questions about who's paying the lawyer if we're going to use my lawyer to draw up our agreement. I want to suggest that I'll pay for the financial advisor (protection of assets) and H should pay for the lawyer (getting a divorce) even though he's my lawyer and represents me. At least we should talk about it.
I've talked with H about renting out a room in our house and doing the necessary construction to make that work. My parents have been working for the past year on finding a retirement home where they can be near my kids and be assured of nursing care if something should happen to one of them. It occurred to me that I'd really like to address those two needs together and have my parents come live with us. On the spur of the moment I suggested it to my mom to think about, and later I discussed it with H and S14 to start thinking about. H had lots of ideas about bumping out a wall on the first floor and building a separate entrance etc. It just seems silly for them to spend so much money to be near us and us to rent to a stranger to bring in money we need. I suspect, with my family being how it is, that it's not going to happen - my parents feel strongly about independence and living on your own and not needing help from people. Even though it seems like a win win to me, I think they would see it as being dependent on and imposing on us. We'll see. But the main thing is that I'm thinking as more of a giving person, which has been one of the things I'm working on. People aren't around forever, and I'd rather be able to help them out and keep them close than focus on my own life and stuff.
Oh yeah, one more chapter in this book. My bootcamp fell by the wayside after a trip to the beach. I came home tapped out and exhausted, and busy at work, and stressed out and unhappy. So, I felt more like eating oreos glued to my laptop and I let all my goals slide. The scale shows it. This week I picked myself up, dusted myself off, and got started again. I swam a mile and did a hike, and took note of some bad eating habits that just going to sleep at 10 would solve. It's like steering a big ship around, but I will do it. It felt so good to watch my progress before, and I'm trying to keep thinking about that good feeling.
So it's a beautiful day out and S12 gets home from camp at 5. I'm going to go enjoy. Hope you all are having some fun this weekend.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
JBut every now and then I think of a great "zinger" I'd like to say to him and I don't. I know it won't help to try to make him feel bad, but I asked my T why I feel this need to do that and what to do about it.
I think that it is perfectly normal. This is all out of our CONTROL. We didn't ask for it, don't want it and it is the total opposite of what makes any sense. It does not make sense to sit idly by and watch this train wreck happen. However that is exactly what we must do.
Wish I could hand you an EASY button to FIX it all but that is not going to happen.
You sound like you are working your way down the PATH. Just don't do too much of HIS work for him but continue to PROTECT yourself just like you are doing.
AD it is normal to feel angry. It is also normal to want to get even. it also normal to want and protect your ego. The rejection from them is very painful. So we want a come back phrase. The way I see it now is to live as happy as I can. It still not easy but I'm on the go every weekend. I just said ef it. Let whatever happens happens.
M 53 D 20 Separated 6/22/11 moved out 10/24 Together 26 yrs Married 16 W Filed for D 7/21/11 Served 9/6/11 D final 8/28/12
“Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be.”
Thanks, LaBug, Cadet and Rick! LaBug, I'll go read your post next. Cadet and Rick, I'm glad to hear it's normal to be angry - it sure feels normal to me. But it's not how I want to be. I want to be the actor in my life and not a ball of wimpering reaction.
I'd like an EASY button anyway, maybe I'll go get one just for fun. Court date? THAT was easy. Sign papers? THAT was easy. JK, none of this is easy.
LaBug, I'll keep thinking but I remember she said pick a time when you have a good chance of being heard and when it makes sense with regard to what you're hoping to get out of saying something. Her example was in response to my frustration that h often says how I'm not taking a financial hit and how the kids and I will be fine. I feel outraged and angry every time he says it. If he says it again I may be prepared at that time to say xyz. The therapists' words started with "H, I think you are in DENIAL about what this situation is doing to us financially." It went on from there and each point was rational, no inflammatory words, nothing untrue or exaggerated. No zingers. Just a very rational statement that would not make him angry, because his anger would be detrimental to my cause, but to give him my perspective as it differs from his.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
1. try posting your angry thought here just list all the zingers. It may help you lose interest in expressing them directly to him.
2. Every time I read about your H the thought that just keeps popping up in my head is he just was to f some 22 year old for a couple months once he feels like a man again cause he is with a hot young woman he will want a R with his life partner & the mother of his children again.
I dont see your H at all being honest with himself about what is going on. He is totally gaslighting and blaming you for Everything and not taking resposnbility for his own feelings. Also not even recognizing his true thoughts, total denial. He has done no work on himself this year he has just hidden in a bubble with his ears closed.
3. I went to family c not not my IC with my H to discuss helping our D adjust. She told my H all the things I needed him to hear about what he was doing to the family in a straight forwarded non judgementally way that I wasnt able to do. She said things like "children will always want their parents to be together". She got him to agree that we should not be introducing our children to any significant others until we were very serious.
4. You will have other opportunities to express to your H family that you do not want a D. I liked your T suggestion and you should keep it in mind the next time the opportunity arises. I am quite certain most of the woman in his family do not think you are happy about this.
5. Dont worry about when or where he will change his mind. You have done a great job GALing and doing meet up groups, hiking etc. Keep the focus on you not on the wacko.
6. I dont like the use of the word denial in your response to your H. Maybe you can just say "Once we have 2 seperate accounts my income will be abc and my expenses will be xyz" I think the word denial reflects judgement.
You are doing an amazing job. Taking the high ground is the only path that can work. Unfortunately you are carrying the load until he sees the light. Be an example to your kids as you have been.
hugs
---- M 39 H 35 D5,D4 M 4 T 9 ILYBNILWY 5/18/11 Left 7/11/11 Divorced 12/1/13
I have thought about the movie Hall Pass more than once since this all started. From the start I felt like I was living some Judd Apatow movie or something. Such a cliche.
I don't know that H understands himself what he really wants, so to open our marriage for a set amount of time so he can get it out of his system, I don't know, just doesn't seem like something workable for us. I don't know if I could stand it either. He may or may not be already doing that, but he's having to keep it hidden if he is. I go on the assumption that he probably is, but I don't have the pain of seeing evidence or really being sure.
Keep the focus on me is the best advice. That's helped me so much from the beginning, to keep me in line being a person I'll be proud to have been and a person I want to be. Thanks for the reminder!
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
