Interpretation of MWD and DR regarding infidelity

[zig]

(((( starsky))))

gimme the short version, ok ?

i'll be happy with that

zig

[Denver_2010]

This ^^^^ to me is the elephant in the room on this bb.
the constant 2 x 4's from everyone to everyone about not having expectations, not having hope etc.

Here is where you're not understanding the definition of "Expectations". There's nothing wrong with having goals, in fact, DB encourages you to write certain small goals down and how you plan to achieve them. Whatever action you do, you must have no "expectations" as to what your spouse will or will not do. It's acknowledging that they have a choice on how they will react.

Too often, people come here and "expect" their spouse to react a certain way and are discouraged time and time again when it doesn't happen. They start second-guessing themselves, looking at every detail, every correspondence, etc. And all it does is make them paralyzed through fear or indecision.

Having a goal is great, but expecting another human being to react in a way that you find favorable every time, may discourage you from that goal.

^^^ Yes!

[Starsky309]

(((( starsky))))

gimme the short version, ok ?

i'll be happy with that

zig

OK, Short Version:


Betrayed Spouse: "I'm not ready!"

Other advisors: "That's OK -- you're not ready!"

Starsky: "Get ready!"


Seriously, I wrote a TON of stuff, did a whole red-fonted thing that would've made 25mlc proud. Talked about my own sitch, what worked for me, and elaborated on the distinction between how much time it takes for PIECING, versus you don't necessarily have to endure an open affair during that entire time. It was truly one of the best posts I've ever written.

Stuff happens for a reason. Losing it prompted me to just say "F-it" and post my Transparency thread, which includes links to my ENTIRE sitch, in all its naked glory. Perhaps that's what was supposed to happen.

Happy reading. As you will see, I did NOT always use short posts!!


Starsky

[Denver_2010]

I would agree with Denver on this distinction. It's basic "Plan A"/"Plan B" stuff (see Harley), but the whole purpose of the "Plan A" period is for your wayward spouse to "see the new you" -- see your improvements, and see what they'd be missing if they don't come back to the marriage.

Yes. Wasn't sure if we could mention the book. But very helpful. And yes, that is what I am talking about.

I believe Harley says that 6 months is the longest one should Plan A (I'll have to look that up), I've found that some people can endure it better than others. For me, I simply couldn't continue to condone an active affair as it violated my own integrity. I DO think that the worse your marriage was prior to the affair, and the worse YOUR CONTRIBUTION to the dysfunction was, you do probably have to "Plan A" longer than someone who was basically a good and faithful spouse prior to their wayward spouse's infidelity.

When I say that I did "Plan A" for 18 months, it's not exactly accurate. I did show W the new me for that period, but I did not tolerate the affair. In fact, there really was no period of time when I tolerated it. W and I did not talk for the first 6 weeks or so of our S. I suspected an A, but it was not confirmed until we first started talking about R on Feb 10, 2011 (funny how we remember milestones). It was at that point, that W began trying to R, eliminating OM (because she knew that i would not tolerate it and that it was wrong), but her feelings for OM had not been resolved.

In May of 2011, when I found OM hiding from me on the toilet of my W's rental house, LOL, is when I first stated very clearly that I would not be a part of her life if OM was (apparently, I hadn't been clear enough about that from Feb-May). We were up and down on that issue through Jan of this year. W would say that she was done and she and I would try to work towards R, but because her feelings for OM were not resolved, it didn't work. So she and I'd S again, I'd reiterate that I'd not be a part of her life as long as he was, she'd 'date' him for a month or so, and then be missing me. And... the cycle would start over. That happened, what, 2,3 times?

Me being DONE in May of this year actually had nothing really to do with OM. He was still around in the distance, but W was not talking to him or seeing him. I do believe that she still had unresolved feelings, but she really was trying to separate herself from him. But he became stalkish. In any case, me reaching the point of being DONE and finally telling her so, was more about her inability to forgive me and really commit to the M.

I guess the reason I want to lay this out is that I don't want anyone reading this thinking that I just condone affairs, or that I advise that anyone just tolerate your spouse being with someone else while they also have a R with you. I don't.

But i do think that the lines on what is, and what isn't, an actual affair are blurred. And I do think that an LBS does have to assess their own situation to determine just how much they can tolerate or wait out. For me, W had left me and emotionally divorced me before she began her A with OM... or, began dating OM... see, it depends on how you define things and people have different definitions. Because it was not just a flat out A, and because I knew that I had heavily contributed to driving W away from our M, I was able to be more understanding, more tolerant, and was able to rationalize waiting it out. I just wasn't going to be an active part of her life while she did it.

[Denver_2010]

elaborated on the distinction between how much time it takes for PIECING, versus you don't necessarily have to endure an open affair during that entire time. It was truly one of the best posts I've ever written.

Hmmm... maybe what I was really doing from Feb 2011 through now WAS really a long period of piecing with ups and downs... Never looked at it that way, but maybe.

You know my sitch very well Starsky... what do you think?

[chatterbug]

Its important to distinguish between snooping , spying , tracking and observations and confirming.

1. Key logger. Computer is used by the house. Then this is fine.
If the computer is the 100% owned by the other person or school or work then do not install a keylogger. This the difference between spying and confirming. You are also logging your actions as well.

This may cover your behind legally, but I don't believe the part of the brain that can get addicted to snooping knows this difference. to me, doing this w/o your spouse's knowledge is snooping. A person can justify it any way they want, but it is what it is.

2. VAR . Carrying a VAR on you that records your interactions with your spouse is legal. Placing a VAR in your car that you use is legal. Leaving one around your home in a room that you use is legal. Everything else is spying. And can cause you legal issues. ( This I would look up with your local laws )

Same

3. Reviewing joint bank accounts , credit cards , phone bills. Legal.

Again, I look at intent here. If you are going through the phone records in an attempt to catch your spouse then you are snooping for all intents and purpose.

4. P.I. Hiring a registered legal P.I. Legal.

legal, but can you recover and can you handle the truth.

5. Logging into their facebook , emails .... Not legal. If it is caught in the keylogger then you can read the logs. But you cannot take the info and log into their accounts.

]If your spouse leaves and you give them a computer as a gift then do not use the keylogger any more. Turn it off. Same with the VAR in a car. You are no longer involved in the day to day activities so this is when it crosses over from tracking and confirming to spying.

And when you go dark.

You go dark.

Dark means no interaction. This includes your tracking and confirming. ( Naturally of course you are going to track joint assets and debts.... but one should not go dark without getting this loose end tied up for full protection )

i think a lot of this is purely semantics. the end result, the information you are seeking is the same whether is called "confirming or spying;" "whethers is legal in the eyes of the law or illegal"

What I haven't seed mentioned is that people can and do get addicted to spying/snooping. My IC told me that the part of the brain that is activated when snooping is the same part of the brain responsible for many addictions.

Sorry Harrier I disagree. What you call semantics I call verification vs spying.

2 paths.

path 1. I think there is something going on. I cannot quite figure out what it is so instead of accusing I am going to observe and verify. Gather facts and then either work on why I had those thoughts or confront.

path 2. I am a jealous spouse so I am going to constantly check up on my spouse with these means when she has done no wrong.

A classic example can be.

Observation:

Teenage son school work drops , is always tired and no longer engaged.

Determine if the issue is that the boy is staying up all night on the computer , doing drugs or alcohol or is dealing with depression.

This is done by verifying what they are doing when they are on the computer, talking to teachers and if needed a physical at the doctors.

Then communicating to the boy about the issue and resolving it.

No spying and no snooping.

Observation, Verification.

You totally missed the point her. No surprise. But you just added another word for it - "justification"

Like I said, call it what you want. it is what it is.

it's the same thing - you are still just putting a label on it to suit your particular need. There are arbitrary "lines" that move something from "verification" to "spying"

Everything is a moving target, everything is hazy, The end result is the same.

I know why people do label it in a way that works for them. Denial is a powerful force.

No particular need.

I felt something was up.

So I gathered my info. Observations on behavior changes, new interests. I knew something was up so I installed a key logger on my computer.

Read the outgoing words typed on the computer.

Then I confronted.

I fail to see denial or anything else. So lets agree to disagree and end this conversation on our opinions on this subject.

[Denver_2010]

incidentally as an aside - are you guys saying that if you had the opportunity to get the inside scoop on what was really really going on with your spouses, you would just refuse to hear about it? that's not a question directed only to you starsky, but to everyone

stay well

zig

I would not want specifics. I know enough. But I think that this is a matter of personal preference.

[chatterbug]

Hi Zig.

I think one of the issues that you need to address is being stuck in recovery stage.

One of the biggest black holes going. It can suck you in Recovery and you need to recover from recovery.

See you get comfortable.

It becomes habit forming. You write and talk about your self recovery , blow up non issues to become important. You find others who are remaining in recovery stage.

And you just stay there.

It becomes who you are. And if you move onto the next stage. You lose that world. Fear takes over. You stay in recovery. Cause here it is safe. The martyr syndrome takes over.



I can see you having to deal with this at some point down the road.

[Starsky309]

elaborated on the distinction between how much time it takes for PIECING, versus you don't necessarily have to endure an open affair during that entire time. It was truly one of the best posts I've ever written.

Hmmm... maybe what I was really doing from Feb 2011 through now WAS really a long period of piecing with ups and downs... Never looked at it that way, but maybe.

You know my sitch very well Starsky... what do you think?

Yes, I think that's accurate. For those that don't have as clear-cut of lines drawn between the "affair" stage and the "reconcilation" stage (for example, wayward spouse has fits and starts of no-contact with OP), I do think there is overlap then.

More accurately, though, I think what you have is ONE person piecing -- in this case, YOU -- while the other is still wayward. Even if they ATTEMPT to begin piecing/reconcilation, their continued contact with OM/OW sets them back and keeps their PEAs flowing and they remain largely blocked to noticing the betrayed spouse's improvements.


Starsky

[Denver_2010]

Zig ….you asked…

are you guys saying that if you had the opportunity to get the inside scoop on what was really really going on with your spouses, you would just refuse to hear about it? that's not a question directed only to you starsky, but to everyone

This question is posed, at least my interpretation, which could be wrong – as a Yes or No answer and I do not believe that exposure is a yes or no answer. Way too many variable to factor in and as each sitch is different and each person is different a “what works for you is the best answer”.

That said, here are my thoughts….

IF the LBS can handle it and not go off the F’ing deep end, which provide the WAS with additional “reasons”, then I think knowing is a good thing. You would at least know what you are faced with and can respond accordingly i.e. tailor your DB approach.

IF the LBS cannot handle it then I think it may have a negative effect on both the LBS and the WAS. I have seen LBS pass out, become suicidal, etc. which IMO, may have been avoided IF they focused on themselves, faced the fear that they had and THEN found out.


As for me personally, I snooped found out and was NOT at a place where I could have handled it – If I would do it all over again, I would focused more on ME, MY issue AND THEN snooped and taken the appropriate action i.e. hard boundaries, etc.

The notion of “finding out” is a very delicate topic….it’s weird it is almost a chicken or the egg scenario. I needed to grow a set before I confronted; however, confronting help me (in a small way) grow a set. Make sense?

Popcorn so early in the moring Eric??

Maybe I misinterpreted this question by Zig. I have a tendency to quickly read through these posts these days and do absolutely no editing of my own posts

Let me expand on my answer. YES, I wanted to know the truth about my W's R with OM. She was very honest and upfront with me about it when we sat down and had dinner in Feb of 11, after about 6 weeks of very little contact. It hurt like a SOB and I had to excuse myself to go to the bathroom so W did not see me cry. Spent that entire night awake, by myself, banging my fists on the floor, and crying. It was horrible.

But I was glad that she was honest with me.

From that time through Jan... the last time that I really had to deal with the OM issue... There were other times when W was brutally honest with me about not being done with R. There were times when she omitted the truth and I busted her on it because my instincts had told me to snoop/verify... whatever you want to call it. But she would be brutally honest when I confronted. But I wanted to know the truth. Yes.

During times when we worked on piecing or towards piecing, W and I had multiple conversations about her R with OM. I think that we needed to discuss it because it was important for me, for us, to understand why that had happened. It was important to understand what OM had given to W that I hadn't. It was important for me to understand. And it was important for W and I to understand so that we could decide if our M was capable of providing that for her.

Again, she was brutally honest. We went to a M retreat in March and I remember one particular conversation. It was about emotional intimacy and how it affects physical intimacy. You can imagine that this was not a pleasant conversation for me to have with my W. But I learned so much about her from that conversation.... and... we are not enjoying the fruits of what I learned. But it was horrible at the time.

I still have flashbacks to all of these brutal truth moments. I'm pretty sure that I have PTSD from it all. I mean that. But it was all so important to the progress of my situation. I would not deny them.

BUT... I never, ever, ever, want specifics on the physical part of it. Never. My imagination is probably worse than the actual truth, but I don't need to take the chance that I am wrong. And there simply is no reason to have that conversation.