Forgot to add that if you look at the people who successfully DB'd. They had dropped all expectations of their WAS's coming back or reacting a certain way. They just didn't care what their WAS thought. It's at that point that you realize that the changes you are making, really are for you and their not fake or a ploy. Then that's when the WAS starts questioning if they really want this great person out of their lives.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
Wow; so much action here, so late at nite! Have a little mercy on us old folks in the Eastern time zones, willya?
Much to respond to, but work is calling, so I'll get to more of this a little later. I do want to say that there's a misunderstanding as to what my own timeline was. Here's a quick copy-and-paste, from my personal journal:
My timeline:
I confronted my wife within 24 hours of having proof she was having an affair.
I exposed her affair within 24 hours to our adult daughters, and within two weeks to her family and her employer.
I re-confronted her on Day 60, and laid out a "No More Deceit" boundary, telling her "either you tell our daughters and your parents the truth about your relationship with (OM), or I will." I had evidence, and I told her she had five minutes to decide. Within two hours, she had told all four of them the truth -- that she wasn't "just friends" with OM, and that I hadn't been lying when I told them she was having an affair.
About a week later (around Day 70), I filed for divorce, after my wife stubbornly refused to end her affair.
On Day 90, she ended her affair, and asked "what will it take?" to reconcile. I laid out my short-list of non-negotiable boundaries, and we reconciled.
There were several fits-and-starts after that, with the divorce initially being put on two 3-month "stays" before finally being withdrawn. We also separated for a couple of weeks about a year ago, and agreed to date other people, but that was short-lived, and after one "date" (drinks with a former co-worker) I agreed to move back in with her to work on our marriage. We did some MCing, still struggle with the SSM thing, but have remained great friends and partners ever since, and celebrated both our 25th wedding anniversary and the birth of our first granddaughter in 2010.
Interestingly, when my wife tearfully asked for reconciliation (and thereafter), she told me that although she HATED me at the time, and was LIVID with me for exposing her affair, she understood why I did it, RESPECTED me for it, and THANKED ME for fighting for our marriage!
So I do draw a distinction between the time it takes to PIECE (months -- even several years), and how long one should put up with an active affair without consequences. The distinction I make in the approach that I advocate is to FIRST do whatever you can to "separate the addict from the source of their addiction," and to THEN begin the long hard slog of piecing. Because to try to piece with another person in the picture will be fruitless and ineffective, and to try to simply "stand" in the face of unrepentant infidelity saps at your self-esteem, your emotional and mental health, your family's finances, and the well-being of the children in my opinion.
More later . . .
Starsky
P.S. The above was my approach. Some elements of it aren't necessarily in the DB catechism (exposure, for instance). Reasonable people can disagree about that one; I was asked, and so I'm saying that it worked for me. In fact, someone asked upthread "What were the main reasons your wife said she came back to the marriage?" and that's a great question. I did ask her that. Her answer:
1. Losing me as her best friend. She said that my telling her that "If you decide to end our marriage this way -- by having an affair and lying to everyone about it, including our own family -- that we would categorically NOT be friends after the dissolution of our marriage. We would be civil towards each other, and effectively co-parent, but not friends and certainly not BEST friends. If, however, she decided to end her affair, and come back and work on the marriage with me, and we gave it a reasonable amount of time (say, a year) and we agreed that it wasn't working out, then yes -- we would probably be good friends eventually.
2. The disapproval of her parents and our adult daughters -- especially her mom and our D-then-18.
Please note that the brief separation "one year ago" was in mid-2009, not one year ago from today. It was during that time that I finally relented and AGREED with her that we should, in fact, date other people -- something I had steadfastly resisted all along.
Starsky did it in 2 months, I did it in 18 months. I don't think Starsky is any tougher than me or prideful... sorry Starsky. I just think that his situation was different than mine. For example, I was a terrible H and BF in many ways to my W for 7 1/2 years. Not in every aspect, but in many. I caused my W hurt that I knew was not going to heal easily or quickly. For me, 2 months was simply not enough time.
I would agree with Denver on this distinction. It's basic "Plan A"/"Plan B" stuff (see Harley), but the whole purpose of the "Plan A" period is for your wayward spouse to "see the new you" -- see your improvements, and see what they'd be missing if they don't come back to the marriage. I believe Harley says that 6 months is the longest one should Plan A (I'll have to look that up), I've found that some people can endure it better than others. For me, I simply couldn't continue to condone an active affair as it violated my own integrity. I DO think that the worse your marriage was prior to the affair, and the worse YOUR CONTRIBUTION to the dysfunction was, you do probably have to "Plan A" longer than someone who was basically a good and faithful spouse prior to their wayward spouse's infidelity. I was no saint, but when my in-laws asked my wife what her BIGGEST complaints with me were, she said "He spends too much time on the computer" (this would be on my laptop, on the opposite couch from her in the evenings, 8 feet away from her as we watched TV together) and "He's always at those damned ballfields" (I coached our boys' baseball teams).
Its important to distinguish between snooping , spying , tracking and observations and confirming.
1. Key logger. Computer is used by the house. Then this is fine. If the computer is the 100% owned by the other person or school or work then do not install a keylogger. This the difference between spying and confirming. You are also logging your actions as well.
This may cover your behind legally, but I don't believe the part of the brain that can get addicted to snooping knows this difference. to me, doing this w/o your spouse's knowledge is snooping. A person can justify it any way they want, but it is what it is.
Originally Posted By: chatterbug
2. VAR . Carrying a VAR on you that records your interactions with your spouse is legal. Placing a VAR in your car that you use is legal. Leaving one around your home in a room that you use is legal. Everything else is spying. And can cause you legal issues. ( This I would look up with your local laws )
Again, I look at intent here. If you are going through the phone records in an attempt to catch your spouse then you are snooping for all intents and purpose.
Originally Posted By: chatterbug
4. P.I. Hiring a registered legal P.I. Legal.
legal, but can you recover and can you handle the truth.
Originally Posted By: chatterbug
5. Logging into their facebook , emails .... Not legal. If it is caught in the keylogger then you can read the logs. But you cannot take the info and log into their accounts.
]If your spouse leaves and you give them a computer as a gift then do not use the keylogger any more. Turn it off. Same with the VAR in a car. You are no longer involved in the day to day activities so this is when it crosses over from tracking and confirming to spying.
And when you go dark.
You go dark.
Dark means no interaction. This includes your tracking and confirming. ( Naturally of course you are going to track joint assets and debts.... but one should not go dark without getting this loose end tied up for full protection )
i think a lot of this is purely semantics. the end result, the information you are seeking is the same whether is called "confirming or spying;" "whethers is legal in the eyes of the law or illegal"
What I haven't seed mentioned is that people can and do get addicted to spying/snooping. My IC told me that the part of the brain that is activated when snooping is the same part of the brain responsible for many addictions.
Sorry Harrier I disagree. What you call semantics I call verification vs spying.
2 paths.
path 1. I think there is something going on. I cannot quite figure out what it is so instead of accusing I am going to observe and verify. Gather facts and then either work on why I had those thoughts or confront.
path 2. I am a jealous spouse so I am going to constantly check up on my spouse with these means when she has done no wrong.
A classic example can be.
Observation:
Teenage son school work drops , is always tired and no longer engaged.
Determine if the issue is that the boy is staying up all night on the computer , doing drugs or alcohol or is dealing with depression.
This is done by verifying what they are doing when they are on the computer, talking to teachers and if needed a physical at the doctors.
Then communicating to the boy about the issue and resolving it.
No spying and no snooping.
Observation, Verification.
You totally missed the point her. No surprise. But you just added another word for it - "justification"
Like I said, call it what you want. it is what it is.
it's the same thing - you are still just putting a label on it to suit your particular need. There are arbitrary "lines" that move something from "verification" to "spying"
Everything is a moving target, everything is hazy, The end result is the same.
I know why people do label it in a way that works for them. Denial is a powerful force.
Patience is bitter, but its fruit is sweet. --Jean Jacques Rousseau.
You totally missed the point her. No surprise. . . .
it's the same thing - you are still just putting a label on it to suit your particular need. . . .
Harrier,
And what "need" would that be? Not sure what you see in Chatterbug's agenda; I see someone trying to help and pay forward some of the wisdom acquired along the way, so I'm not really sure where the antagonism is coming from.
Wherever you come down on the whole "snooping" scale, I do think that people on all sides of the issue are well-intentioned and advocating what they are in the hopes of trying to save the marriage, and protect the family.
<insert picture of Eric eating popcorn while he reads a very interesting post>
"The difficulties of Life are intended to make us BETTER,not bitter". "Fear is a prison, where you are the jailer. FREE YOURSELF!" "Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B." - Jack3Beans
oh star sky! - why is it that when i ask you questions you always come back in battle mode?
Wasn't in "battle mode" at all, zig -- you'd KNOW it if I was. I took your all-caps "SHEESH!" to be more argumentative than my upper-and-lower-case, simple question of "Why do you suppose this (someone's certainty) bothers you so much?"
Well, you WANTED me to ask questions, so I did.
In all seriousness, men are simple creatures and I'm probably on the simpler end of even the man-scale. I don't do navel-gazing well (much to the chagrin of a couple of my friends who constantly ask me for some deeper, more complex explanation for what it is I'm advocating). So my posts tend to be short and direct, and I know that's not everyone's bag, and so I'm sorry if I'm not explaining the "why" behind my advice as often as would be helpful for you.
I'm going to try to use one or two of your most-recent posts, and go thru it and answer your specific questions. Would that be more helpful?
Starsky, thanks for posting your timeline, I hadn't seen all of that. There was a strength and certainty in the way you responded, which was probably as important as what you did and said. (I imagine it wasn't as easy as you make it sound....) Getting that strength and certainty is what I'm after, maybe what others are after. It's some of what the beginning DB steps are about, I think. And maybe the reason we all progress at our own speeds....
I took your all-caps "SHEESH!" to be more argumentative than my upper-and-lower-case, simple question of "Why do you suppose this (someone's certainty) bothers you so much?"