Interpretation of MWD and DR regarding infidelity

[Denver_2010]

OK, I'm going to concede a little here. Hat tip to a post by Denver which had me re-read AtLRT. I can see where MWD's words could be interpreted as condoning the attempt to end the A.

In AtLRT (p218 of DR), MWD discusses AtLRT and indicates that the BP should really be at the end of their rope and before Ultimatum or simply filing, the BP can try this. Although the BP MUST be prepared to accept that this could end the M, quite successfully.

MWD suggests the BP to "Tell your spouse that you love him/her enough that you are prepared to let go, then back off completely."

ie. Complete NC except in regards to children. We'd call this "dim" in some cases. So I guess if there are no kids, then this is NC.

Basically, the premise as described would be to show the AP there will be no R until the OP is completely out of the picture. And at that time, the burden of proof is on the AP.

So for all intents and purposes, MWD does suggest this technique as an option.

~~~~~~

So there ya go. Learned something new...

Funny too... because I went that route and my W never did try to reconnect with me... so I guess I missed out on the part of the technique which is standing strong about no R until the OP is gone... lol...

Personally, I think that it takes a combination of a few different things to successfully do this.

First, the fact that your S is having an EA and/or PA is usually the result of something that is missing for them in the M to you. They go to the OP to find that thing that is missing. In my case, I didn't treat my W well, didn't make her feel wanted, attractive, etc. She began to confide in OM. He was listened to what I was not giving W and slowly began to give those things to her. Became her friend and supported her in moving out of our home. Once that was done, he 'was there for her' (Seinfeld reference) and was able to take advantage of how weak and hurt that she was after initially separating from me. W has admitted in the past couple of months that she sees now that OM was 'an escape for' her.

So the first step of successfully navigating this is to figure out what YOU were not providing to W or H that caused her/him to stray. Fix it and begin to show that you can provide it, that you can give what was missing in the M. (assuming of course that you can sincerely provide it and not just fake it).

For me, it took a very long time to show my W this ^^. If I had taken a tough guy approach, I would have only validated why she left me in the first place and strayed to OM.

Consistent action over a long period of time... while eating a huge sh!t sandwich. But necessary IMO.

Second, once you've had an opportunity to show your W or H what you are capable of, and what they may be missing out on, you can begin to set some boundaries. "I won't be a part of your life as long as OM/OW is."

Now, they have seen what you are capable of... you've caused them to hesitate... wonder about their choice.

For me, I went round and round in this stage. The problem is that there is usually an emotional connection with the OP that if very, very difficult to break. This was definitely true in my sitch. A second problem is that you still have a long history with your W or H... even though you've shown that you are different, there is still that history, that baggage, that hurt... and all of that just doesn't go away. OP provides them with a clean slate.

So there is this back and forth. Again, for me, this is what I experienced.

The OM provided my W with an alternate path for her life that had some appeal. Afterall, he gave her all of the things that I had not ... emotionally there for her, made her feel beautiful. My W said that he made her feel that she was too good for him, whereas I made her feel that I was too good for her. This is what continues to pull your W or H away from you even after you've shown that you are different. This happens because the OP will not give up so easily. This I learned the hard way. It was/is a battle.

W has told me recently two things that help explain this stage:

1) OM provided "an opportunity for happiness" without me that was very difficult for her to let go of. Why? Because of the fear of what was with me. The fear that we would go back to that if she came back to me. Again, the OP provides the clean slate and does not have to deal with the painful history.

2) I felt like home for her. This was the pull that I had. This is where the history with my W worked to my advantage. She has told me that no matter what was going on in our S, how bad things were between us, that she always hoped that we would work our way back to each other.

So, the third stage...

Take the new you completely away from your W or H. For me it was applying the after the last resort technique. Why? Because I was emotionally exhausted and just absolutely felt DONE. I literally didn't have a choice in my mind. I could not go on. So I told W that I was filing for a D. That was it. I began to move on. It was at this point, that I actually began to see that there could be a happy life without my W and my M.

W saw that I was serious and that she was in serious jeopardy of losing me... the new me... the me that she considered home in life. This is where, finally, in her words... she had an 'epiphany of what she wants for her life and what she doesn't want'. This is where some of the control truly shifted. Where I could say, 'I am done with OM... no more of him whatsoever... if you won't take care of it, I will.' I could do this without fear of making W angry or validating her choice to leave me and stray to OM. I could do this because I had reached the point where I was done anyway. I had looked over the edge of the cliff and accepted what was there. And W had seen a completely different 'me' for 18 months... consistent action over a long period of time. Necessary.

I also think that there is another way to do this last, third, stage. "Close the Gates". Basically you cut off all contact with your W or H, accept for convos about 'bills and boys' as Jack3Beans calls it. No convo unless it has to do with finances or kids.

Otherwise, you cut off the new you from your spouse altogether. And you begin to live your life. You let go of the hope and expectation that you are going to save your M and reconcile with your S.

The difference between what I did and this is that the D word isn't used.

So anyway, that is my take. How I see this topic based upon what I have experienced, and what I have learned from others experiences.

As Starsky said, every situation is different and has to be handled in unique way. But the general principles are the same IMO.

Denver

[~ kd ~]

Just catching up here... well, just skimmed. Looks like some really good perspectives. I'll be going through this after work tonight.

I just want to put a strong disclaimer in here right now to all the newbies and others who are reading and absorbing the material, here.

Take everything here with a grain of salt. Each one of us has our own beliefs and moral compasses, if you will. It is ALWAYS your choice to proceed with or without DB, in a strict or relaxed way. This discussion is and was intended to be strictly for providing differing interpretations and opinions to "by the book" DB approaches, especially in regards to infidelity.

This IS a DB specific and focused forum and as is often stated here by the mods:

+ The ONLY DB EXPERTS are MWD and the coaches.

[Starsky309]

OK, I'm going to concede a little here. Hat tip to a post by Denver which had me re-read AtLRT. I can see where MWD's words could be interpreted as condoning the attempt to end the A.

In AtLRT (p218 of DR), MWD discusses AtLRT and indicates that the BP should really be at the end of their rope and before Ultimatum or simply filing, the BP can try this. Although the BP MUST be prepared to accept that this could end the M, quite successfully.

MWD suggests the BP to "Tell your spouse that you love him/her enough that you are prepared to let go, then back off completely."

ie. Complete NC except in regards to children. We'd call this "dim" in some cases. So I guess if there are no kids, then this is NC.

Basically, the premise as described would be to show the AP there will be no R until the OP is completely out of the picture. And at that time, the burden of proof is on the AP.

So for all intents and purposes, MWD does suggest this technique as an option.

~~~~~~

So there ya go. Learned something new...

Funny too... because I went that route and my W never did try to reconnect with me... so I guess I missed out on the part of the technique which is standing strong about no R until the OP is gone... lol...

Personally, I think that it takes a combination of a few different things to successfully do this.

First, the fact that your S is having an EA and/or PA is usually the result of something that is missing for them in the M to you. They go to the OP to find that thing that is missing. In my case, I didn't treat my W well, didn't make her feel wanted, attractive, etc. She began to confide in OM. He was listened to what I was not giving W and slowly began to give those things to her. Became her friend and supported her in moving out of our home. Once that was done, he 'was there for her' (Seinfeld reference) and was able to take advantage of how weak and hurt that she was after initially separating from me. W has admitted in the past couple of months that she sees now that OM was 'an escape for' her.

So the first step of successfully navigating this is to figure out what YOU were not providing to W or H that caused her/him to stray. Fix it and begin to show that you can provide it, that you can give what was missing in the M. (assuming of course that you can sincerely provide it and not just fake it).

For me, it took a very long time to show my W this ^^. If I had taken a tough guy approach, I would have only validated why she left me in the first place and strayed to OM.

Consistent action over a long period of time... while eating a huge sh!t sandwich. But necessary IMO.

Second, once you've had an opportunity to show your W or H what you are capable of, and what they may be missing out on, you can begin to set some boundaries. "I won't be a part of your life as long as OM/OW is."

Now, they have seen what you are capable of... you've caused them to hesitate... wonder about their choice.

For me, I went round and round in this stage. The problem is that there is usually an emotional connection with the OP that if very, very difficult to break. This was definitely true in my sitch. A second problem is that you still have a long history with your W or H... even though you've shown that you are different, there is still that history, that baggage, that hurt... and all of that just doesn't go away. OP provides them with a clean slate.

So there is this back and forth. Again, for me, this is what I experienced.

The OM provided my W with an alternate path for her life that had some appeal. Afterall, he gave her all of the things that I had not ... emotionally there for her, made her feel beautiful. My W said that he made her feel that she was too good for him, whereas I made her feel that I was too good for her. This is what continues to pull your W or H away from you even after you've shown that you are different. This happens because the OP will not give up so easily. This I learned the hard way. It was/is a battle.

W has told me recently two things that help explain this stage:

1) OM provided "an opportunity for happiness" without me that was very difficult for her to let go of. Why? Because of the fear of what was with me. The fear that we would go back to that if she came back to me. Again, the OP provides the clean slate and does not have to deal with the painful history.

2) I felt like home for her. This was the pull that I had. This is where the history with my W worked to my advantage. She has told me that no matter what was going on in our S, how bad things were between us, that she always hoped that we would work our way back to each other.

So, the third stage...

Take the new you completely away from your W or H. For me it was applying the after the last resort technique. Why? Because I was emotionally exhausted and just absolutely felt DONE. I literally didn't have a choice in my mind. I could not go on. So I told W that I was filing for a D. That was it. I began to move on. It was at this point, that I actually began to see that there could be a happy life without my W and my M.

W saw that I was serious and that she was in serious jeopardy of losing me... the new me... the me that she considered home in life. This is where, finally, in her words... she had an 'epiphany of what she wants for her life and what she doesn't want'. This is where some of the control truly shifted. Where I could say, 'I am done with OM... no more of him whatsoever... if you won't take care of it, I will.' I could do this without fear of making W angry or validating her choice to leave me and stray to OM. I could do this because I had reached the point where I was done anyway. I had looked over the edge of the cliff and accepted what was there. And W had seen a completely different 'me' for 18 months... consistent action over a long period of time. Necessary.

I also think that there is another way to do this last, third, stage. "Close the Gates". Basically you cut off all contact with your W or H, accept for convos about 'bills and boys' as Jack3Beans calls it. No convo unless it has to do with finances or kids.

Otherwise, you cut off the new you from your spouse altogether. And you begin to live your life. You let go of the hope and expectation that you are going to save your M and reconcile with your S.

The difference between what I did and this is that the D word isn't used.

So anyway, that is my take. How I see this topic based upon what I have experienced, and what I have learned from others experiences.

As Starsky said, every situation is different and has to be handled in unique way. But the general principles are the same IMO.

Denver

EXCEPTIONAL post, Denver. This is hard, hard stuff, and the forum is blessed to have you (and others who have successfully done it) here, paying it forward.





Starsky

[Starsky309]

I just want to put a strong disclaimer in here right now to all the newbies and others who are reading and absorbing the material, here.

Take everything here with a grain of salt. Each one of us has our own beliefs and moral compasses, if you will. It is ALWAYS your choice to proceed with or without DB, in a strict or relaxed way. This discussion is and was intended to be strictly for providing differing interpretations and opinions to "by the book" DB approaches, especially in regards to infidelity.

This IS a DB specific and focused forum and as is often stated here by the mods:

+ The ONLY DB EXPERTS are MWD and the coaches.

Jeezus, KD -- we get it. Are you applying for a mod position, or maybe hall monitor or something?


Starsky

[Still learning]

True and fair, Harrier. I don't advocate snooping. It might be a type of addiction - ironically without the feel good reward. It was definately a sign of insecurity and something I had to get over before making progress. It never progressed past reading open browser windows or seeing who had called her.....but, to be honest, I'm not sure I could have moved on to DBing without it. My own personal weakness. Not feeling the need to snoop is a great relief, which I took as a sign of progress about a year ago.

[~ kd ~]

Jeezus, KD -- we get it. Are you applying for a mod position, or maybe hall monitor or something?

There's an opening??? lol...

Just covern' my arse...

[chatterbug]

Its important to distinguish between snooping , spying , tracking and observations and confirming.

1. Key logger. Computer is used by the house. Then this is fine.
If the computer is the 100% owned by the other person or school or work then do not install a keylogger. This the difference between spying and confirming. You are also logging your actions as well.

This may cover your behind legally, but I don't believe the part of the brain that can get addicted to snooping knows this difference. to me, doing this w/o your spouse's knowledge is snooping. A person can justify it any way they want, but it is what it is.

2. VAR . Carrying a VAR on you that records your interactions with your spouse is legal. Placing a VAR in your car that you use is legal. Leaving one around your home in a room that you use is legal. Everything else is spying. And can cause you legal issues. ( This I would look up with your local laws )

Same

3. Reviewing joint bank accounts , credit cards , phone bills. Legal.

Again, I look at intent here. If you are going through the phone records in an attempt to catch your spouse then you are snooping for all intents and purpose.

4. P.I. Hiring a registered legal P.I. Legal.

legal, but can you recover and can you handle the truth.

5. Logging into their facebook , emails .... Not legal. If it is caught in the keylogger then you can read the logs. But you cannot take the info and log into their accounts.

]If your spouse leaves and you give them a computer as a gift then do not use the keylogger any more. Turn it off. Same with the VAR in a car. You are no longer involved in the day to day activities so this is when it crosses over from tracking and confirming to spying.

And when you go dark.

You go dark.

Dark means no interaction. This includes your tracking and confirming. ( Naturally of course you are going to track joint assets and debts.... but one should not go dark without getting this loose end tied up for full protection )

i think a lot of this is purely semantics. the end result, the information you are seeking is the same whether is called "confirming or spying;" "whethers is legal in the eyes of the law or illegal"

What I haven't seed mentioned is that people can and do get addicted to spying/snooping. My IC told me that the part of the brain that is activated when snooping is the same part of the brain responsible for many addictions.

Sorry Harrier I disagree. What you call semantics I call verification vs spying.

2 paths.

path 1. I think there is something going on. I cannot quite figure out what it is so instead of accusing I am going to observe and verify. Gather facts and then either work on why I had those thoughts or confront.

path 2. I am a jealous spouse so I am going to constantly check up on my spouse with these means when she has done no wrong.

A classic example can be.

Observation:

Teenage son school work drops , is always tired and no longer engaged.

Determine if the issue is that the boy is staying up all night on the computer , doing drugs or alcohol or is dealing with depression.

This is done by verifying what they are doing when they are on the computer, talking to teachers and if needed a physical at the doctors.

Then communicating to the boy about the issue and resolving it.

No spying and no snooping.

Observation, Verification.

[ericmsant2]

Are you applying for a mod position, or maybe hall monitor or something

Hey Kaffe....just bustin on ya!

EXCEPTIONAL post, Denver. This is hard, hard stuff, and the forum is blessed to have you (and others who have successfully done it) here, paying it forward.

I totally second this ^^^^

[Starsky309]

Sorry Harrier I disagree. What you call semantics I call verification vs spying.

2 paths.

path 1. I think there is something going on. I cannot quite figure out what it is so instead of accusing I am going to observe and verify. Gather facts and then either work on why I had those thoughts or confront.

path 2. I am a jealous spouse so I am going to constantly check up on my spouse with these means when she has done no wrong.

A classic example can be.

Observation:

Teenage son school work drops , is always tired and no longer engaged.

Determine if the issue is that the boy is staying up all night on the computer , doing drugs or alcohol or is dealing with depression.

This is done by verifying what they are doing when they are on the computer, talking to teachers and if needed a physical at the doctors.

Then communicating to the boy about the issue and resolving it.

No spying and no snooping.

Observation, Verification.

BINGO.

I'm sure someone will (again) give the usual "at some point, you have to trust." To that, I say "Trust must be earned."

[~ kd ~]

Are you applying for a mod position, or maybe hall monitor or something

Hey Kaffe....just bustin on ya!

Hey, didn't you hear? This is the DB SAT... and the person who gets the highest mark...

Gets a chance to... MAYBE... save their M...