Interpretation of MWD and DR regarding infidelity

[~ kd ~]

Thanks, Accuray.

He says "most affairs end within six months of their seeing the light of day (being revealed to their family and friends)".

I think it's interesting that Harley states the above.

MWD states in DR the same stat and makes no reference to that stat being based on exposure.

In fact, MWD states she is strongly opposed to exposure, even though she does concede it may work in some cases.

And that is really part of the reason for this thread. To examine how some appear to be interpreting DB one way and others appear to be interpreting it other ways.

And from what I can see within DR as well as MWDs articles and letters posted here and elsewhere, MWD both does not condone:

+ exposure of an A

+ attempts to shame, blame, or otherwise coerce an AP to end an A

Rather, her works appear to specifically point at focusing on oneself, to the extent of otherwise ignoring the A and OP, for the purpose of improving oneself and become a better potential spouse, person, parent AND possibly more attractive than the OP.

I know that some truly believe that exposure and direct focus on the A and ending the A works. And as you note Accuray, there are websites out there for people who would like to follow that path.

Whereas here, it truly appears contrary to the premise of DB.

[~ kd ~]

OK, I'm going to concede a little here. Hat tip to a post by Denver which had me re-read AtLRT. I can see where MWD's words could be interpreted as condoning the attempt to end the A.

In AtLRT (p218 of DR), MWD discusses AtLRT and indicates that the BP should really be at the end of their rope and before Ultimatum or simply filing, the BP can try this. Although the BP MUST be prepared to accept that this could end the M, quite successfully.

MWD suggests the BP to "Tell your spouse that you love him/her enough that you are prepared to let go, then back off completely."

ie. Complete NC except in regards to children. We'd call this "dim" in some cases. So I guess if there are no kids, then this is NC.

Basically, the premise as described would be to show the AP there will be no R until the OP is completely out of the picture. And at that time, the burden of proof is on the AP.

So for all intents and purposes, MWD does suggest this technique as an option.

~~~~~~

So there ya go. Learned something new...

Funny too... because I went that route and my W never did try to reconnect with me... so I guess I missed out on the part of the technique which is standing strong about no R until the OP is gone... lol...

[~ kd ~]

pssst... MWD... there appears to be a third outcome from AtLRT...

[Still learning]

KD - I've "snooped" if you want to call it that. I called it research. W and I always shared passwords and accounts, and at one time our calendars were synched up (though she probably had forgotten this). I discovered things that upset me, then had to carry that inside me, silently, because of how I found out. That was VERY tough. But I needed to know if I was, frankly, losing touch with reality. I never discovered anything I didn't already "know" from Ws actions and outward behaviors. But having the "facts" made more of an impression on "just-the-facts / don't-give-me-your-feelings" W. I suppose I should be grateful that we had established some basic unspoken rules about our phone and computer accounts - phone and web accounts were often left open, by both of us. I never had to log our activity. Maybe because W didn't think she was doing anything wrong....a hallmark of an EA, right? Other situations are different.

I have a rather over-developed sense of what's right and wrong - and I never felt I crossed a moral/ethical line. I wouldn't even if the roles were reversed.

As for what exactly to do in response to my situation, well, I spent plenty of time considering my options. I suppose it's true about most As ending after six months.....but in my case my W will be working with this crew for perhaps the next twenty years. Even if it ended for her, it wouldn't have ended for me. If I thought I could compete with Ws EA/career - that I'd have won - I might have made her choose right away. But I wouldn't have won. In my case "exposing" her EA to friends wasn't necessary - they saw it as clearly as I did. I needed time to get myself together - either to win the battle, or just survive the war. I don't know that I'll win, but I know I'd survive now. On bad days, I think about how much time I've wasted, and the years I just KNOW the stress has taken off my life. I can feel the resentment and get twisted up inside. On good days I'm actually grateful for all this - I can see how I've grown. I like who I am now. And I feel like I've finally become a man in full. Nowadays, I'm trying to just have more of those good days than bad.

well, too much sharing. interesting thread.

[~ kd ~]

Hey SL, yeah. EAs are really tricky animals. Purely a perception thing in most peoples eyes. Like a MLC, many people don't believe there's such a thing as EA or MLC.

MWD is fairly clear that "snooping" (ie. secretly going around and checking stuff out on our own, would be my definition and I THINK the one MWD might use) is harmful to the BP in the sense that we may find MORE than we bargained for or maybe even find nothing at all, so the guilt of snooping would be compounded by lack of evidence (maybe we didn't snoop properly?) and lastly I would guess that that snooping takes the focus off working on us, which is a large component of DB.

In my case like yours SL, I never did find any damning evidence that the EAs went to PAs. And the EAs could have been interpreted as benign. There are those who will say that if there's suspicion, it's probably an EA. If it's a fairly certain EA, it's probably a PA. And so on. For me, the reason to stop snooping was I was fairly certain it was at least an EA, it hurt nonetheless, and my W denied that what I actually saw between her and OM1 was absolutely nothing. I could very easily be convinced that the EAs that I am convinced ARE real... are really just a figment of my imagination.

Obviously, gathering information is more an aspect of figuring out if there is something going on, just to confirm. My opinion is, once there's confirmation... then what? Keep snooping?

For those who keep watching that, and I have to say it would have been a full time focus for me, I suppose it would be to see if or when the A ends.

So... IDK... I asked my W, she denied, I know what I saw and believe it was an A, and in the end... it's her either saying nothing happened or it was OK because she didn't feel M vs. me saying it was and it was unacceptable...

And it ends in a stalemate of two prideful, stubborn people with no resolve... my efforts could have been focused on more productive DB efforts... and ultimately were...

[Starsky309]

~~~~~~

So there ya go. Learned something new...

Funny too... because I went that route and my W never did try to reconnect with me... so I guess I missed out on the part of the technique which is standing strong about no R until the OP is gone... lol...

KD,

As Theoden stated recently in a really incredible post, NOTHING works ALL THE TIME. All we can do is try the methods that give us the BEST chance of (in this case) ending an affair, and reconciling the marriage.

I personally do believe in some of the other techniques, and think people would be wise to study the various methods and do what THEY think is best for their situation. But I also respect that we are here at MWD's courtesy, and so I therefore try not to advocate things that are anti-DB.


Starsky

[Harrier]

Its important to distinguish between snooping , spying , tracking and observations and confirming.

1. Key logger. Computer is used by the house. Then this is fine.
If the computer is the 100% owned by the other person or school or work then do not install a keylogger. This the difference between spying and confirming. You are also logging your actions as well.

This may cover your behind legally, but I don't believe the part of the brain that can get addicted to snooping knows this difference. to me, doing this w/o your spouse's knowledge is snooping. A person can justify it any way they want, but it is what it is.

2. VAR . Carrying a VAR on you that records your interactions with your spouse is legal. Placing a VAR in your car that you use is legal. Leaving one around your home in a room that you use is legal. Everything else is spying. And can cause you legal issues. ( This I would look up with your local laws )

Same

3. Reviewing joint bank accounts , credit cards , phone bills. Legal.

Again, I look at intent here. If you are going through the phone records in an attempt to catch your spouse then you are snooping for all intents and purpose.

4. P.I. Hiring a registered legal P.I. Legal.

legal, but can you recover and can you handle the truth.

5. Logging into their facebook , emails .... Not legal. If it is caught in the keylogger then you can read the logs. But you cannot take the info and log into their accounts.

]If your spouse leaves and you give them a computer as a gift then do not use the keylogger any more. Turn it off. Same with the VAR in a car. You are no longer involved in the day to day activities so this is when it crosses over from tracking and confirming to spying.

And when you go dark.

You go dark.

Dark means no interaction. This includes your tracking and confirming. ( Naturally of course you are going to track joint assets and debts.... but one should not go dark without getting this loose end tied up for full protection )

i think a lot of this is purely semantics. the end result, the information you are seeking is the same whether is called "confirming or spying;" "whethers is legal in the eyes of the law or illegal"

What I haven't seed mentioned is that people can and do get addicted to spying/snooping. My IC told me that the part of the brain that is activated when snooping is the same part of the brain responsible for many addictions.

[Accuray]

KD, I wasn't posting from the perspective that exposure was the right course, I was just saying "here's another opinion, what do you think of this?" Just wanted to be clear where I stand.

Here's how I think about it -- chances are when your spouse leaves they harbor some deep resentments toward you. Exposing their affair is definitely going to make them resent you more, so to me it seems overall destructive -- it very well may help to end the affair faster, but probably pushes your spouse farther away emotionally in the process and therefore makes it harder to ultimately reconcile.

That's how I think about it, but I'm open to being convinced otherwise.

Accuray

[Starsky309]

Sorry, but I belong to the "If I'm going to go down, I'm going to go down having given it my absolute best shot" school. One can point out all the limitations and reasons why "it'll never work," but I personally felt a responsibility to my family to PROTECT it. OM/OW are PREDATORS, and I felt -- reasonably, I think, considering how destructive affairs can be -- that my, my family's and even my wife's finances, emotional and even physical health were at risk.

I make no apologies, and when my wife ended her affair she thanked me for doing so.


Starsky

[ericmsant2]

chances are when your spouse leaves they harbor some deep resentments toward you. Exposing their affair is definitely going to make them resent you more, so to me it seems overall destructive -- it very well may help to end the affair faster, but probably pushes your spouse farther away emotionally in the process and therefore makes it harder to ultimately reconcile.

First I think it really depends on the persons sitch.

IMO, there really is no right or wrong answer here. That said,I do think a person must consider a few things before they go down the path of exposing...

1) EA or PA
2) Has the LBS made ANY changes to address some of the issues that the LBS wants to make. In short, did they give it at least a little bit of time.
3) The WA - Is the walk away a total duche? Are they the type to cheat?
4) Kids no kids - With kids it is a little more complicated.
5) Lenght of the A - did it just start...has it been going on for years?

I can go on and on...my point is that it really is a personal choice. I also believe that the LBS must be in the right place emotionally. Confronting in pure rage is not a good thing. Can they accept or are willing to say F it...OR are they going to become sucidal if the WA ends the M.

I also agree that the LBS must have enough respect for themselves to remove them or the WA in order to miminze the amount of emotional damage that is done the the LBS.

Just my 2 cents.

Eric