How you doin', Andy? I'm guessing by the post that you're still keepin' at 'er...
I suppose I was a little terse in my response.
I'm more of an occasional visitor to the boards nowadays, so I haven't been following your sit, but you made me think about "keepin' at 'er."
In a Zen-like sort of way, I am, and I get the feeling you are doing much the same things I'm doing.
We seek the answers to questions like "What does she really want?" and "Is what I'm doing working?" Another question, one which you asked me at the top of my thread is, "what do you want?"
Good questions, but the answers are elusive. The reason they're so elusive is that they ask for an absolute answer, and that is simply not possible. So we go ahead and make generalizations like "I bet she doesn't even know what she wants."
I think we know what we want, and our SO knows what s/he wants. We can't articulate it because the answer is more complex than the question.
If I were to answer the question, "What do you want?" The answer depends on whether you're asking about what I want ideally, in the context of my current sitch, or somewhere in between.
There's a galaxy of difference between those two, and a miriad of answers in between.
The only way I can articulate the answer is that I want more than what I have.
Is what I’m doing working? Again, there is a spectrum of answers. My W does not love me. That is clear, and that is most certainly what I want. A few years ago, she said we should D. I disagreed. In other words, I did not facilitate a D, but if she were to pursue one, there’s nothing I could do to stop her. It ended there, but she continued to distance herself from me to the point where she behaves pretty much as if it happened. Since then, she has been friendly, but emotionally distant.
Where does that lie on the “is it working” spectrum? Dare I hope for more improvements?
I don’t know, and I really don’t think it’s within my control.
All I know is this...
We’re all influenced by stereotypes, both in terms of how we perceive ourselves and how we perceive others.
I’m not a stereotype.
Neither is my W.
So, I endevour to not behave in a stereotypical way so that my W will not view me in a stereotypical way. Whenever I see my W behaving in a stereotypical way, I try to see how that stereotype might be influencing her self perception so that I can adapt my own behavior to her perceptions. But it’s not useful for me to buy into the stereotype; particularly if it’s a negative one.
Bottom line is that all I can do is to be the best Andy I can be. Both in thought and in deed. And that’s how I’m “still keepin' at 'er”
Nice post and I'm gonna read it a few times. On what you said about us generalizing and saying, "they may not know what THEY want"... it is true. For lack of a better answer that's forthcoming, that's all we can guess.
Which is why we really do need to figure out what we want... whether our M is saved, or not...
So that segues into my personal entry...
In keeping with the theme of what you said, Andy... and following up on the question that dbmod asked, about my "wild guess" as to what my W wanted...
I've been emailing and texting her over the past week. Prior to a 4 day concert she went to, she'd been responsive to most of the emails. Then, dead silence. She finally broke the silence yesterday, asking me about plans this coming week for D9 and also for me to give her another couple child support cheques. That was it.
So, I took the liberty to mention to her that I wanted her to understand that I was being friendly and chatty with her because I do want to be a better example for the kids. I actually explained that the kids seemed to respond positively to us being more friendly... and said that I hoped to keep working on that if she was comfortable with that.
She responded saying that she was glad that I and her were on the same page and that we were both moving on with our lives.
Fair enough, right?
I am totally good with that... very clear message.
And then...
She very clearly indicates that she respects that I have my friends and she hopes that I respect she has hers. And as far as being friendly, she is "good the way we are."
Alrighty, then... clear message... clearly she is telling me she wants me to stay clear of her... guessing some anger still there...?
So dbmod...
I do not have an answer for you except that she still pretty is saying that she wants nothing from me and I suspect there is nothing I can do to fill her heart...
I think one could certainly say zen IS acceptance...
Hey zigger.... didn't get a chance to respond on your thread, but I am doing great. Hope you are, as well.
As usual, a day spent reflecting... I love my job... so much time to think... without really thinking about it... very zen... lol
The day was spent thinking about something that I think I've forgotten, although I believe the focus was friends... and how it was a bit sad that my W just is not ready for that, at this time... but then, zen would allow us to understand... that is OK... it is what it is and it will be different if it becomes so...
So this evening I had an almost forehead slap moment...
I just sent an email to my W thanking her for the box of chocolates I got mad at her over, apologized for getting mad, and let her know I was going to crack the box open now and enjoy a couple of those gems...
See... I think I really understand Love Languages, now... it is about some primary things that we put meaning and value on...
It could be boxes of chocolates, it could be a brushing of feet under a table, it could be laying on a blanket with someone, saying nothing while watching the stars for hours... and so on...
After something I read about D14 today, I think her primary LL is gifts... and then it struck me... I actually think that my W's primary LL is touch AND gifts...
I had originally thought it was touch and service, but gifts makes so much more sense. Like the trinkets she brings back from her work trips for the kids, to banana loaf and chocolates that used to be sent with D9 on visits with me...
And I think I got confused because... I think that my MIL's LL might be service... and my W has probably spent so much time trying to fill MIL's LL or maybe I'm wrong and it is FIL's LL (in order for W to get what she needs to fill her LL)... that my W just uses acts of service as though it is her LL... both giving and receiving...
but as I said, I think that (service) is a cheeseless tunnel...
Because I KNOW: + my W often gives gifts + my W (almost) always keeps what appear to be meaningless trinkets she gets (I know, many of us do; but it really does seem she puts significant value in that, quite frequently) + my W seems to purge things she got from someone when they start to have a negative connotation for her + my W will GIVE something to someone... and then take it away when she is mad at the person... I see her do this often, with the kids... + my W was VERY upset when I started giving gifts, back before I was DBing. Telling me how it made her uncomfortable
+ with acts of service, while she seemed pleased when someone did something she wanted done, and was often upset if it wasn't done or done in a specific way... she'd be unlikely to notice something was done, without being told it was done... and she could be highly critical or dismissive, but rarely joyful on acts of service
~~~~~~~~~~~
It is also very interesting how we use our own LLs in positive and negative ways and how we have a tendency to use our partner's LLs in positive and negative ways, even when we are not consciously aware of what we are doing, or even know about LLs...
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I do know that my W has denied gifts from me and also know she stays far away from me when we are together (unless she's off her guard). I believe she will continue to be on her guard around this stuff.
But I do see how I could use touch and gifts with the kids (especially the kids, but with others, as well), while in my W's presence, to fill her heart.
So OK... I guess I was able to figure it out, dbmod...
And what she wants from me?
Well, I certainly can see that while she claims not to want anything from me, and I wanted to feel offended by giving my W the child support cheques (even though I DO want to help her with the kids' expenses) by thinking that she's just using the money to go on trips and spend on herself...
hmmmm...
Well, she IS wanting the cheques... and in a way, the cheques ARE gifts... because it's not mandatory in the SA at this time... and in a way, money IS a gift... and if she's spending it on herself...
I guess, even though she may deny it and probably does not even see it that way...
I AM able to give her what she wants... even though she claims she doesn't want it... in fact... she ASKED for it...
And she said to me, "You know it's difficult for me to ask you for money." when she did ask me for help.
And just for the record...
God NO... I am not doing this because I want to M this woman...
at least...
that's how I feel... right now...
and that... is OK...
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Oh, just so y'all know...
My writing is definitely my extrovert showing...
It's also me fulfilling my words LL...
And it's filling my quality time, LL...
which is why...
I don't go away...
and possibly why I am still trying to connect with my W and be her friend...
i want to talk more about this - i sort of skimmed throughout that LL book, just last week, and then got so confused about what h's LLs or mine were that i sort of put it aside. now reading your post, i'm more interested to explore that, but later
meanwhile - how long are you join got "fight' this??????????
grinning virtual hug sent
zig
me 46 H 38 M10yrs T 11 S10 BD ow 8/11 h filed 9/25/12
"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"
I've been thinking about the "what she wants" question. I think you’ve hit on something when you said:
Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem
hmmmm...
Well, she IS wanting the cheques... and in a way, the cheques ARE gifts... because it's not mandatory in the SA at this time... and in a way, money IS a gift... and if she's spending it on herself...
I guess, even though she may deny it and probably does not even see it that way...
I AM able to give her what she wants... even though she claims she doesn't want it... in fact... she ASKED for it...
I came to the conclusion a while ago that the golden rule is incomplete.
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".
That statement assumes that others (in this case your W) wants the same things you do. Since you really don’t know what your W wants, is that a good assumption?
Better to follow the platinum rule:
"Treat others in the way they want to be treated."
Another thing you hit on is that what she wants is not necessarily something she appreciates or even knows she wants from you. Your W acknowledged her appreciation of the child support, but even if she did not, it’s something she wants from you. Sometimes these things are simply expected, and therefore not appreciated. There may be things you W wants from you, but neither of you realize it's taken for granted because:
Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem
that is who I am. That is what I do.
One last thought about your earlier post:
Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem
Because that is who I am. That is what I do. When I don't make up reasons... to do otherwise...
Going back to what I said about stereotypes. It’s when we fall into the stereotypes that we “make up reasons... to do otherwise.” If we look at things through the prism of the way things “should” be, we try to cram that perception into our own sit. It’s so easy to stop being “who I am” (in your words), or “the best Andy I can be” to use my mantra. You’re a giving person, KD. Don’t ever let the situation change your actions into something that conflict with the good parts of who you are.
We can always use bad situations for self-improvement. Just gotta make sure bad situations don’t take us away from the good stuff.
very zen... lol