Going around in circles

[25yearsmlc]

I understand "letting go," Angel. It still doesn't mean you drop your own personal boundaries. I'll give you just one example, from my own experience:

Even after I decided to file for DIVORCE from my wife, when she refused to end her affair (talk about "letting go" -- this was the ULTIMATE "letting go"), I still would not tolerate her talking to (or texting) her OM in front of me, or our kids, nor calling him from our marital home. She respected the boundary.

Did it "affect" me when she did that? Well, sure, but only to the extent that it made ME feel like crap that I would allow MYSELF (or my kids) to be treated so disrespectfully. I had already given up feeling personal sadness over it, or any illusions of "winning her back" -- I was done.

I just chafe when I see the "controlling" word thrown around these forums so loosely and, often, incorrectly. "You're too controlling!" is often nothing more than the rant of a wayward spouse, crying "I don't want to have any consequences for my poor behavior!" No, you cannot control another person, but you can ABSOLUTELY control how they treat US.

That's the distinction I was trying to make.

Starsky

I hear you Starsky...but for ME from where I sit

Angel's h and your w did NOT have the same events or affairs & I am making a distinction. I happen to believe Angel's h is one of the unusual ones who did not 'cosummate" the affair, given various cultural and professional factors in their situation. Plus, I agree with her assessment that his needs were not met by her for some time and he did try, in his way, to communicate that but she was too busy trying to get her own expecations met to notice. (Sorry if that stings Angel-I don't mean it to)

And, I am not one to lump all EAs and PAs in the same pile

just as I think SOME LBSers play more of a role in the WASs choice to leave than others.

Sure-we all know-There are some jerks/serial cheaters and selfish idiots who leave a decent marriage

b/c they don't want to deal with 3 young kids in diapers...or face financial mistakes that cost them too much...or b/c they are bored! Or depressive!

and

There are some LBSers who practically shove their spouses into the arms of OW--
only to bitterly complain FOR LIFE, about "the betrayal of it all" and play victim...

(I'm not saying you do this Angel--)

but for instance I have a neighbor who has with-held sex from her h for 4 years now...(??!!!??)

for the life of me, I have to wonder what SHE is thinking. IF he has an affair and she comes to ME to complain

I will for sure ask her what the heck she was expecting...

even though I think her h would still be wrong, TO ME

he'd hardly be in the same boat as the guy who simply doesn't feel like dealing w/diapers and sleep deprivation & would rather dump that on the mother of his kids while he parties....

does that distinction make any sense to you?

I say it b/c I see too many folks just lumping them (affairs) all together and it seems unfair and unwise.

Plus- it deflects from our own personal work which is all we control.

[Starsky309]

Hi 25,

I don't think the presence of infidelity should affect one whit our own "personal work," other than maybe a filter the betrayed spouse ought to use in deciding WHICH things to work on (specifically, they should use their own gut and other outside people they trust to give them an honest assessment of the things they need to work on, coupled with their wayward spouse's PRE-AFFAIR marital complaints). Without doing the work, even if they're successful at getting their wayward/walkaway/MLC spouse back into the marriage, they're only going to find themselves right back in the same spot if they haven't addressed their own issues. I like what Truegritter, I think it was, called it: you work on "those things that 'sting'." In other words, those marital complaints that your spouse has that hit you in your gut, because you too KNOW that they are true, as opposed to the typical affair fogspeak babble.

So I agree with you there.

I disagree on the rest of it. Whether or not your spouse is having an EA or a PA, and whether or not they tried to get thru to you before making the destructive decision to have an affair, I think the "steps," as it were, to DBing the situation are pretty much the same, and I still believe in the simultanous "hybrid" approach of working on your own real issues while laying strong boundaries and doing all you can to separate the addict from the source of their addiction.

If anything, my approach with my wife would have called for a SOFTER touch, because she had never had any prior infidelity (that I know of) and hasn't since, and ours was an otherwise pretty strong marriage.

I think Angel's challenge is that her husband KNOWS that SHE knows that she had a significant role to play in the prior marital dysfunction, and he also knows of of her fear now to "rock the boat," as it were, and so he continues his cake-eating and gives Angel just enough to keep her.

In summary, I think the post-affair, reconciliation WORK that needs to be done looks dramatically different in different situations. But learning to lay strong personal boundaries, and how one affair-busts and divorce-busts -- in my personal opinion -- looks largely the same. At least it SHOULD if you want to maximize your chances for success.


Starsky

[Walking]

Hi Angel

I've just read through your post and there's some really interesting stuff here. I'm really interested in your defensiveness around boudaries - and put some thoughts together.

Boundaries.... I have never been into that all my life, my boundaries tend to be arbitrary and moveable. If there is a way to live in a reasonable manner then I am open to that. I believe that there are many ways to be happy, and not necessarily right to everyone else but right for you, and I am open to that.

Really? An educated, professional Catholic woman has arbitrary and moveable boundaries?

Think about that Angel …. And think about what it means in terms of the behavior you model for those who look to you.

A boundary is, “I’m not prepared to tolerate a relationship where my partner is attracted to another woman.”

Undefined and unarticulated boundaries go something like this …“My religion and the social values I subscribe to provide the rules that my partner and I have to be true, but he wasn’t, so regardless of what I truly think or need to feel loved and safe, or what I’m worth, I’m going to hang it on the rules of this sub-section of human behavior I subscribe to (Christian, middle class, developed world) and, I’m going to move my personal boundary (even though it was developed consistent with those other social norms) it so I can still have the outcome I want.”

• Which effectively means the people in your life know they can get away with anything, because your boundary is about remaining married - that’s all.

So then you have to ask yourself – what do I truly believe about this issue? If you truly believe that the institution of marriage and maintenance of the nuclear family unit is more valuable to you than fidelity – that’s really, really legitimate. Just make sure you are real with yourself about it.

And I am not holding tightly, I just want to make sure that if we did have to part ways, that we do it at the right time. And with the least amount of damage.

Who’s right time? Can you see the inconsistency in that first sentence? I’m not holding on tightly …BUT!!!! 

I was doing so well when I married H.... I married late, at the age of 36, because I was so busy with my career of being an MD ...I was already the chairperson of a hospital department I built up by myself, well on my way up to being a very successful surgeon in my country. I was actually H's mentor, as he was a resident in training when we met, and I was an attending physician. I gave it all up to join him here in the US and stayed on here for the family's sake. I am doing well in my job here but its not the same as practicing my profession. many times I look back and wish for the prestige, the respect I had, of being my own boss, not having to work for others

OK – so now we are getting somewhere. Over the years, your husband has ceased to see you as attractive, resulting in an emotional attachment to someone else. Reading that paragraph, it appears you’ve become less attractive to yourself too – so it’s little wonder your H is where he is.

Angel, the choices you made to marry, have a family, change jobs etc , were YOUR decisions. You didn’t have to do any of that. You gave up a successful career that you enjoyed and had a lot of needs met through (respect, prestige, head of department). Your H is not responsible for your choices – you are. And you are also responsible to develop your own happiness, prestige, respect, etc – that’s not his job.

It’s also a good example of why it’s very sensible to have boundaries. I can’t imagine in a million years accepting a downgrading in my career for any reason … true love, triplets, the parting of the sea … no way! I’ve worked too hard and too long and I value myself and my skills way too much to even consider for a second that I’d have to. I’d be prepared to make changes to accommodate my partner … but sheesh … the way you look at it is .

I gave it all up to join him here in the US and stayed on here for the family's sake.

Well if you did, that was your choice and for some reason you didn’t value yourself enough to find a way to maintain the things that were important to you about your career, well, Angel-lady … that’s kind of on you too.

Its not about setting boundaries, nor about transparency, nor about building up the M.

It goes way back, like a new start. Tentatively, we are taking small steps outwards, into a new world.

I no longer feel burdened by what ifs, by regret, by blame, by possibilities.

I don’t even feel that we have to have our M intact. What will be, will be. We are restarting our relationship, and if it will not work, then thats it. If it does, then great. But it no longer is what will drive my everyday actions, occupy my thoughts.

The burden of making every day decisions, big and small, now matter more again, and I no longer feel that there is an invisible white elephant in the room, which used to be the “problem”.

Its like life is settling back into the humdrum existence that it used to be.

But it is the most wonderful feeling in the world.

Oh dear … most wonderful feeling in the world for whom? Settling back into the humdrum existence that it used to be … hmmm … wasn’t that what got you into this mess?

It’s great that OW has a new partner. It will also make your husband jealous and wonder what could have been … but you just stick there in the humdrum … I’m sure it’s a great strategy to assist your husband find you attractive again.

Angel – it really wouldn’t hurt, at this stage, to just open your mind a little bit to the fact that just because you don’t understand something – in this case boundaries – doesn’t mean you bemoan or disregard them, or indeed NEED TO LEARN ABOUT THEM AND INTERNALISE THE LEARNING to move on through the journey of personal and marriage development.

[angel61]

I am thinking and processing all of what you have written.... just wanted to acknowledge and thank you for giving my situation a lot of thought.

I know I do have to face my confusion. I think I have intellectualized too much, and as a result, have too many reasons, excuses, etc. going around.

I am trying to get an appointment with an IC.

[Endeavour]

Angel, I have never posted to you before but I have been following along for over a year now. I think you are a dedicated mother and an intelligent woman who believes in her marriage and wants to do what is best for everyone involved. I admire that very much and I have always enjoyed reading your threads.

That said, I do have some comments. I have been wanting to comment for awhile but you have Starsky and 25 and they are invaluable.

My husband and I attended Retrovaille last October and we have been piecing for 9 months. My H had an A and so I have read every book on infidelity that I could get my hands on, as well I have spent hours perusing the net for information. I have read it all and what I have learned is that the healing process after an A (regardless of whether it is a PA or an EA) is very narrow. I cringed for you when your H was in contact with OW again. No contact is no contact is no contact. Every contact with the affair partner, sets recovery back to zero. His reaction was predictable. Of course he withdrew after contact with OW. It is all part of the script.

As you know before Retrovaille, they ask that there be no third parties involved. Infidelity is discussed in the post sessions. Infidelity in any form is not a loving decision. An EA is just as damaging to a marriage as a PA. Some say even more so as fantasy is more powerful than reality.

I agree with 25 that the reasons for infidelity vary greatly. I agree that your H holds very strong family values that have prevented him from turning his EA into a PA.

BUT...

The effects of infidelity on the M once it has occurred are the same. Regardless. The damage is the same. The healing must begin with the same steps. The first being NO CONTACT. Ever.

I also wholeheartedly agree with Starsky. His words of wisdom regarding A's are merely echoing what you will read in any book on infidelity. The way to deal with it once it has entered into your marriage is to set firm boundaries.

Boundaries are NOT ultimatums.

Ultimatums come from a place of fear, control and disrespect.

Boundaries are about strength, self-respect and self-esteem

Ultimatums often end a relationship. Boundaries invite a relationship to change.

I think it was Starsky, or some other wise poster that said that those of us who set firm boundaries after an A are the ones who have the best chance of recover ing from infidelity. Those of us who say to our partners, "I love you but I will not be in a marriage with 3 people" understand that we must have boundaries in order to have a healthy relationship with both ourselves and our spouses.

We cannot force our spouses to end an A but we can choose to NOT make ourselves an option if they continue with an A or if they continue contact with their EA partner. I do not believe you can truly piece with an ongoing EA. And contact of any form with a previous EA partner is detrimental to the M.

For the very reasons 25 expressed, I believe your H has very strong values connected to his family and his marriage. I think he wants to be committed and in many ways is...but he is struggling. These are the very reasons I think he knows deep down his EA is the wrong choice and has no future. But he is fence sitting or cake eating or whatever label we may give it because he has that option. There is a contrast effect in an EA or a PA and the spouse appears less appealing because the A is a fantasy. It is not baed on reality in the least which is why less than 2% (or some other dismal number) of A's turn into real relationships. I firmly believe that if you set boundaries for yourself, your H will eventually let go of OW for good. But those boundaries must be firm. They must be done for you and not to control your H. That is the difference that will make all the difference in the world.

Trust yourself.

I wish you well, Angel.

[angel61]

Again, thank you.

Both H and I are headed for a vacation out of the country without D. He will be hunting with his buddies, and I will be going along but decided to stay in the city when they go out to the boondocks, then we meet up after 3 days then spend the rest of our vacation together.

I will be thinking of all of what you have been posting. and I am welcoming any ideas that you have.

Thank goodness, we both got out of our respective funks before the weekend started and have been enjoying each others company these last few days.

[angel61]

Good morning everyone! Its my 4th morning of being on vacation ALONE, and I have been giving a lot of thought to everything that you have all written to me, and some. I have read through some of the wonderful stories of reconciliation on this site, looking at what worked, what were the common threads.

Talking about boundaries: Yes, I do see where they come in, how it works. So I am opening my mind, and I do see that I have a problem there, so I am trying to explore them and go back. I think you will also see from my story why my H has trouble as well with them, and how we are both reacting as we are to the situation we are in.

Walking, you mentioned about it being almost an impossibility that I don't have boundaries or how about my statement about tem being arbitrary and moveable does not belong to my status and religion. I think not .... religion and culture does play a part, deeply ingrained into my psyche (and H's), even after all the education and years spent here in the USA (not much though, 10 years?)

Being a Catholic established my boundaries externally since I was young. We learn that we follow the 10 commandments, and everything else, or we suffer eternal damnation. Growing up in a country with a homogenous population of Catholics, religion was a way of life.

Divorce is not lawful in our country (I guess you will find out where I come from then, if you google it). Annullment is the only way out of a marriage. People do get separated, but it is a HUGE stigma. As I said, there is no one yet so far in the entire huge family of my H who has undergone divorce (think of how huge:my H has a total of 80 FIRST cousins from both sides). I know many people who have extramarital affairs in my country but many accept it as a fact of life and still stay together as a family. Some mothers, for example, teach their daughters that if their H have affairs, to just ignore it. My mom never taught me that though, in case you are curious. When I did hear that, i was dumbfounded, and swore to myself at that time that if my H ever did cheat, it would be a dealbreaker....but we all know how that turns oout sometimes.

Add to that parents who were quite rigid, for example... they did not want me to date, period. If I did not follow rules at home, I get thrown out, disowned, according to my mother. Once I went out with my girl friends when I was about 15 without her permisssion, when I got home, my clothes were outside the house.

So you can see that I did seem to have a lot of external boundaries.

As for internal boundaries, their development? I was quite the rebel, when I was young, and so I just did what I wanted to do and hoped not to get caught. I started having boyfriends at 13. etc. I went to a liberal school, grew up a feminist, moving to the other end of the spectrum. For a while I was even an activist. My internal beliefs clashed a lot with my external boundaries.

Then after I finished medicine, I indulged in my "altrusim" and for 10 years, helped the poor by doing a lot of charity work, going to remote places in my country, doing free surgery (along with H actually). H on the other hand was traditional, idealistic, non-rebellious, very Catholic.

That was my start of going back to my traditional roots.

OK, thats a long enough post, I will continue later.

[Cyrena]

Hi Angel,

Hope you're enjoying your holiday! It sounds as if you're taking the time to really reflect about your past--it's so therapeutic to really consider what our dysfunctions are, how they came about, and what sorts of boundaries we can now rationally choose for ourselves as a result of "growing up" through our crises.

Looking forward to hearing more of your reflections....

[Ctflor]

Hi Angel

I relate to the strong Catholic background as well. Although I'm Oglala my mother made sure I was raised Catholic, and taught that God hates divorce and that it is a sentence in hell for divorcing. But my father, Oglala, in his culture, it is taught to women to look the other way if the husband cheats. It is not tolerated by many women now as it was in our older generation and my generation. And my experience in living on the reservation made me see how bad domestic abuse is and how we Native women handle cheating. Most will fight back against it, going after the OW. I was thankful to find this site, which taught me how to handle myself better.

[Accuray]

Hi Angel,

I'd like to catch up on your sitch, but I feel like this thread is starting on volume 8 of an 8-part volume and I don't know what has come before. Do you have a summary you can link me to that will give me the background? Since you've identified that we have many parallels in our situations, it would make sense to work together, but I need to catch up!

Thanks,

Accuray