Forgiveness

[25yearsmlc]

Antlers

you are still keeping score and reminding her of it. That's NOT helpful to anyone, even you.

WISH you could see that.

It shows little growth/insight and

it does NOT sound as if you are "taking responsibility" at all. Not to her. Heck, even I thought you should have said nothing about your r with her...

just about the kids...otherwise it's all about who did what to whom and you did have to get a dig.

You think that "Sharing" the fault for the divorce, changes what SHE believes? It doesn't. IT CONFIRMS HER NEGATIVE VIEWS OF YOU...

just stay in your sandbox and do NOT mention what she did to you. The truth will surface and is reflected in her future actions and behaviors. The kids have eyes and ears. They were there and still are. They are smart enough to know who has grown and changed and who has not. ANd who is still letting their wounds fester.

You need say nothing bad (even if true) about their mother. EVER.

That is taking the high road.

And it will be much more appreciated by them than keeping score of sounding petty and saying "yes I did bad things and I 'own' them BUT SHE'S AT FAULT TOO..."

do you see how that undermines the changes you claim?

it's pure scorekeeping. Lose the scorecard.


Otherwise, good job. And good luck

[antlers]

I DID NOT mention any scorekeeping or remind her of it in either of the communications that I sent to her regarding us and the kids. I realize it wouldn't be helpful to anyone. I can see it...and I'm glad that some folks here point it out to me when something I say can be interpreted that way by her...even when it's not my intention. I feel like I've come quite a ways since Halloween as far as growth/insight. And really, I have 'owned' my screwups from day 1...even if she doesn't see of that way. But I'm glad that some folks here point things out to me that can be interpreted by her in a way that I did not intend. It's a learning experience. It's only about the kids from here on out. To me. Who did what doesn't mean anything anymore. I honestly don't want to make anymore 'cuts'. I can see that 'sharing' faults for the divorce will not change what she believes, and how it confirms her negative views of me. Sometimes I need reminding. Sh!t...I think that my still breathing confirms her negative views of me. I'm only concerned about our kids and their well-being. I haven't said anything bad about her to out kids ever since I said I wouldn't...and I won't. I do see how mentioning that it wasn't all me undermines my changes. Again, sometimes I need reminding. I'll lose the scoreboard...completely. I honestly do not 'feel' a need to do that, nor do I feel any anger or resentment.
I did want to extend an olive branch concerning our kids...I feel like I have. I'll continue. I do think the 2 texts that I've sent her about this are good.
Thank you.

[25yearsmlc]

you did send an olive branch and that was good. Just keep it ALL about them no matter how she tries to lure you into a fight or contest.

Turn it back around and say "I understand you feel that way. I also know we both love our children so let's get back to them..."

Don't say "BUT..." at all. Just that you get what she is saying (not that you agree but that you KNOW how SHE feels...

and then stay on topic, which is solely about the kids.

Ask for her opinion in specific ways-not so you are asking if you two can get along. That's a bit much for her now, Imo.

[2thepoint]

Antlers, just wanted to follow up one last time before going to bed....not feeling well tonight.

You had mentioned earlier in my thread that by saying "we" that it takes a little of the sting out of the comment while at the same time shows me taking some ownership as well which you believed helps to create common ground. That's all I was thinking and doing.

The quote below was my original suggestion. Note that when I referenced "we" I was talking about that in the context of the opening sentence. You did this in your note to your Ex but then went on in your proposed response to place blame... "we both did things that contributed to.....".

"Something like, "Ex, I know we have been at each other in our various interactions and I'd really like to try to find some common ground as it relates to the kids. I love them and I know you do too. Here's what I'm thinking.... what are your thoughts?" Saying "we" in the opening statement takes a little of the sting out of your comment while at the same time shows you taking some ownership as well which I believe helps to create common ground"

On your post back to me below, you are attempting to justify what you included in your proposed response as not turning a blind eye...

"I'm not trying to get in a dig...I'm owning my actions...but not turning a blind eye to shared responsibility either. It doesnt sound 'accusing' to me. That's the truth. Do you still feel I shoul nix that part? Am I supposed to take ALL responsibility for what happened...like she wants me to?"

In essence, yes ^^^^^ if you ever want to get to a workable solution. I think this is what 25 is referring to as the scorecard. You've got to get rid of it!

I know that swallowing this crap sandwich really suks. But what is your alternative?

Think of it this way. God appears to you in a dream and says:

"Antlers, tell your Ex that you are sorry for all the hurt that occurred in your M, even though I know you are not entirely at fault. Take 100% of the blame and never, ever speak or think ill of your Ex again.

In return, I will give you ever lasting peace, your children will be forever well behaved and have hugely successful marriages and careers. And you will be granted everlasting happiness"

And you only have 2 choices. Accept everything that God has offered you in your dream, or go back to where you are today and never get off the proverbial dime.

Wouldn't it be worth it to take God up on his offer and turn a blind eye to shared responsibility and take ALL responsibility for what happened...like she wants me to... for the sake of the prize that God has offered you?

If your answer is yes, then see if you can't also do the same thing without Gods promise.

In other words you would have no guarantees. But maybe, just maybe you might still win the prize.

Does that make sense?

[25yearsmlc]

AMEN!!!

YES that is what I'm saying Antlers...if you want to OWN something

then just own it, and stop talking about what someone OTHER THAN YOU

is responsible for. That is not "owning" it, that's assessing blame, she gets some and you take some and we're left to guess who really wronged whom. That invites more comparison instead of just progress.

What you can't seem to wrap your brain around is that you are keeping score...it's like you want to take 51% or just half and that's not achievable or really justifiable....and it IS keeping score. Do you see that now?

You are not a mind reader and you don't know what it was or is in her heart.

All you KNOW is that YOU effed up. So own THAT & ONLY THAT...

lose the scorecard, please. YOU will benefit greatly.

[antlers]

Yes, it makes sense.

I do see that mentioning 'sharing' faults for the divorce will not change what she believes, and how it confirms her negative views of me. Sometimes I need reminding of that. Sometimes I might say things that will be interpreted by her in a way that I had no intention of conveying to her. I honestly have no anger or resentment, and I have no desire to keep score.

I do appreciate your input. It's been sound wisdom. Thank you.

[antlers]

All you KNOW is that YOU effed up. So own THAT & ONLY THAT...

That's honestly how I feel about 98% of the time. Maybe 99%.

I understand what you and 2tp are saying.

[2thepoint]

OK, I lied. I'm still up. I guess the Advil finally kicked in. One more thing, Antlers...

Yes, it makes sense.

I do see that mentioning 'sharing' faults for the divorce will not change what she believes, and how it confirms her negative views of me. Sometimes I need reminding of that. Sometimes I might say things that will be interpreted by her in a way that I had no intention of conveying to her. I honestly have no anger or resentment, and I have no desire to keep score.

I do appreciate your input. It's been sound wisdom. Thank you.

Back in January I posted the following on this very thread:

"Hey Antlers - I don't think it is going to be as easy as a single communication that get you two to discuss this matter in a constructive way. It is probably going to take the form of several positive interactions between you and your W before she will be open to hearing and changing.

A friend who is D had a very strained R with his ex. Then one day he stopped by to pick up his son and when his ex answered the door, he said hello and simply shook her hand. That one simple gesture of respect opened up other doors for him and his ex to have conversations about what they wanted for their son and how they would achieve that together.

Just something to consider."

I just wanted to remind you of this ^^^^^.

Show your Ex-W respect, even though she doesn't deserve it. Lose the memory of her wrong doing for the sake of an improved relationship and for your children. I promise it will make all the difference in the world!

[antlers]

Show your Ex-W respect, even though she doesn't deserve it. Lose the memory of her wrong doing for the sake of an improved relationship and for your children. I promise it will make all the difference in the world!

OK. I'll do it. And I believe it too. I really appreciate your participation on my thread. Thank you.

[antlers]

Well, I heard back from Ex. Here's her response......,..

"You need to tell your family to stay out of our kid's business. This is between you and me. And just to let you know they'd stay out of it if you'd quit telling them everything. Omg can you not be a parent on your own without running to them?
And apparently they're only being told part of everything based on what they're telling me."

Seems like she just wants to fight. How do I respond to that?

Do I say, "I understand you feel that way. I also know we both love our kids so lets get back to them specifically."???