Getting Better??

[AntoniaB]

IB, interpreting them tends to be a cheeseless tunnel, as you know. We can always be totally off.

However, I can tell you that my XH said something quite similar and I don't know if it will help or not.

When I last saw XH November 1, at the funeral for our cat, he was as out of the tunnel as I'd ever seen him and telling me he missed me and would always love me. But when I asked him, "if you had this all to do over, would you still have betrayed me", first he said, "I dont' know, I might have given you a chance and our marriage a chance...I SHOULD HAVE given our marriage a chance." (Notice that he still was putting it on me to be the one to fix things there...)

THEN, 30 min. later, he changed his answer and he said, "If I had it to do over would I have betrayed you again? Well, knowing that things turned out the way they did, that I ended up with OW and I got an apartment and 'things worked out ok for me', then YES, I would have betrayed you again."

Then he said, "why did you make me say that?"

I said "I only wanted the truth. Wow. There it is."

My take on your XH and my XH's comments is this: if they had it to do over, they'd do the same. Why? Because they didn't lose EVERYTHING from what they did. They didn't end up in the poorhouse, or they didn't end up without the OW. Therefore, they made the "right" choice. They only equate "wrong" choice with the choice that makes them end up with "nothing", "alone", no family or wife or girlfriend. Total oblivion.

This is still justification/rationalization for immoral behavior, for vow-breaking behavior. "Well it can't be all bad, or else I'd have lost everything."

2 observations on this: it's a very childish way to rationalize a selfish conniving betrayal. It's akin to "well I bullied that kid but I didn't lose all my priveleges at school, so it's all good."

It's also the kind of rationalization that makes these people incapable of acting like a giving, loving, equal partner in a relationship; their world is made up of a system of rewards and punishments, and they aren't motivated to do right for the intrinsic value of being good to others, but they do right (or wrong) based only on whether they "get in trouble" or not.

For that reason, despite the fact that it hurts, these are NOT the people we want to be in committed relationships with. They can't act as equals if this is their mindset. They cannot meet us halfway or even close to it. We are better off detached from them.

I hope that someday they come to the realization that they need to grow up. But I think you and I are better off without people this selfish in our lives. Perhaps they were not this selfish before, but right now, this is all they are capable of, and it's toxic and it's better that we are away from it.

[beatrice]

IB, I agree with both Snodderly and Antonia. A lot of this is about feeling OK with himself and his choices.

I really believe that very deep down they know they have wrecked their lives, but they are surviving, not flourishing, and that is OK with them.

For some of them their world caves in eventually, but so many just go on existing and they have this overwhelming need to believe it could not have been otherwise. That is a crucial for them, I think. Otherwise where do you go from here? It is either clean up your act, or go on as you are, trying to convince yourself you would have ended up there anyway.

[AntoniaB]

To follow up on what Beatrice said about how they need to believe It could not have been otherwise, yes, absolutely, I think they MUST rationalize what they did, because the alternative is to admit that their choices netted them something lesser than what they had, and it's THEIR FAULT that they are in this position. Granted, the LBS was probably responsible for some bit of disharmony in the marriage, but the LBS was always showing she wanted to work to fix things. If they were to admit that they made a big mistake, they'd have no one to blame but themselves because none of us pushed divorces.

I mean, if we had messed up lives, on some level, we'd have an excuse, we were betrayed, deceived, our exes walked away from uss without much warning. But if the architect of your messed up life is YOU, that's got to be worse. So I think they have a basic instinct to keep telling themselves the story that it was all meant to be this way because facing the truth is too tough.

Yes some eventually face the truth and themselves, and I am thrilled that it happens for those people because whether they reconcile with their spouse or not, I think those people who successfully navigate the MLC probably can build much more fulfilling and honest lives down the road. But for most I don't think they have the strength to ever face it. Would WE have the strength to face it if we had been in their shoes? I don't know.

So maybe the thing to do is to just try to not take this personally--I know tough to do, but try--and see that maybe the only way they can function and not completely lose it themselves is if they keep telling themselves lies and rationalizations.

[job]

IB,
You read the message, now let it go. He's trying to maniupulate your thoughts/feelings into warm and fuzzy ones. He wants you to settle down and play nicey in his sandbox so that the outside world thinks that you are okay w/what he's done. Take what he says w/a grain of salt and pour the rest of the salt down the drain.

Actions speak louder than words.

[irishblessings]

Truer words have not been spoken - Actions speak louder than words.

XH shows up again last night with OW and the show continues - hand holding / PDA. I agree with all of you - it relieves his soul to send "kinder" messages. My son has about 6 more games and I cannot wait until I do not have to see the spectacle any longer. I'm absolutely sick to death of my weekends being ruined by their public displays. I do not feel I am in control of the emotional reflex that flashes when he appears - but I am in control of what I do with it.

I hate how I feel right now!

[~ kd ~]

Take a water pistol to the next game...

[seeking answers]

Take a water pistol to the next game...

Filled with cat urine...

[sleeper]

They are nothing but Id. It's all about them. This may be why so many justify leaving with what sounds trivial. We and/or the marriage were not PERFECTLY filling THEIR needs. Could that be a contributing factor in the fact that second and third marriages have increasingly higher divorce rates? Our failure to make them happy is a dealbreaker in their self centered world. Several times post separation but pre divorce X became unhappy with my choices/refusal to meet her demands. In a fit of anger she would scream at me, "This is why we're getting a divorce"! I didn't see the dysfunction that was reflected by her comments until reading your post (thank you).

OW may be happy now but it probabably won't last. I'm beginning to see fraying around the edges of X and OMH's relationship. That giddy, feel good, honeymoon, he's perfect time doesn't last forever.

[sleeper]

Oh here's food for thought. When X married OM, I was present when DD asked X, "Mom, how long will you and OM stay married"? Of course my heart sank at the obvious example X had set for DD by her actions but X's reply had deeper meaning; "For a long time honey".

Not forever? ! ? !

[25yearsmlc]

antonia

it's as if your h is saying "What? Should I have robbed the bank? Well, no one pressed charges even though they lost a lot of money, I didn't go to jail and I still have SOME of the money left--so...yeah... I guess I would".

Brilliant...zero insight on his end. Like NO ONE got hurt b/c after all, HE is okay...


I wish I had an emoticon that rolled her eyes...