Putting it back together, but SSM issues linger

[Accuray]

Thanks Labug and Adinva, it's so helpful to get your feedback, I'm hoping that you will continue to point things out to me that I'm not thinking about the right way.

We have established a routine that when we wake up, we hug. If W wakes up first, she wakes me up to cuddle a bit, and I may then go back to sleep or wake up. We've been doing this for several months now, every day.

This morning I woke up and W wasn't there. I went looking for her, if she was in the spare room that would usually indicate that she's mad at me. She wasn't there. I went downstairs and found her on her work laptop. I asked what was going on, she said she had to do some work "is that OK with you?" Yes, that's ok, I just didn't know what happened.

I went back upstairs and tried to lay down again but at that point knew I wasn't going back to sleep. Went back downstairs and asked W if something was wrong or if there was anything she wanted to talk about. She said that the people she works with overseas were online and she needed to take care of some things. I pointed out that last night I had to catch up from vacation work-wise and did about 4 hours, why didn't she do it then? She said she needed to do it now. I said "Ok, I understand, thanks for explaining" and went and took a shower.

Later in the morning she said that she's "better" work-wise in the morning than at night (despite the fact that she frequently works at night). She was sorry that she made me "so upset" this morning, and her eyes were teary. I said I wasn't upset, I was just confused and didn't know what was going on. I said that we had a routine, today was different and I didn't understand why and wanted to know what was going on. She said "no, I made you upset, and it's OK that you're upset".

So this is a good example of what's been going on. She changed our routine out of the blue with no explanation. When I asked her to explain, she took that to be a complaint, and that I was "very upset", so she must have let me down and she's a bad person. Trying to convince her otherwise was futile. It's hard because anything that *may* be interpreted as me being upset will be. I can't ask a question without going to DEFCON 1.

This is very hard to navigate, I'm not sure what to do. I need to be "allowed" to be minorly annoyed once in a while. I'm going to give myself an ulcer trying to avoid anything that might be construed as disappointment in the worst possible interpretation.

I'm also getting the sense that she's feeling that if all she does is disappoint me, this isn't going to work. When I try to have a productive discussion with her, it's interpreted to mean that she's gravely disappointed me, when all I'm looking for is clarification or discussion.

I'm feeling painted into a corner and I'm not sure how to navigate this.

Accuray

[adinva]

Was your relationship like this when you were dating, when you were first married? Or has it changed over the years? Did you walk this tightrope back then or was she easier to be happy with?

[Accuray]

Oh no, it was nothing like this when we were dating and first got married. At that point she was happy, easy going, and would do things with me, like skiing, swimming, kayaking, rollerblading (back then), biking, etc. Sex was fun, she was engaged. Over time, she slowly gave up doing all those things. Now I can't even get her to go to the beach, she claims the sound of the waves bothers her.

Like anyone, she changed over the years, but I think more dramatically than most. I didn't perceive how badly things had gotten however, because she wouldn't tell me when she was upset. She believed she had a "duty" to be a good wife and not to complain or ask for anything, just to accept whatever I brought to the table. I saw that she was angry / upset but she'd never admit it had anything to do with me so I assumed it was job-related stress.

After the bomb she agreed to talk to me about how she was feeling and a veil was lifted on a lot of things.

That's the long answer, the short answer is that no, she was not always like this and our relationship started out easy. The fond memories and feelings I carry from that time are definitely part of the fuel that keeps me going. If she was always like this I'd have no basis for complaint!

Accuray

[greenblue90]

If you find yourself having the same fight over and over again, despite different circumstances, it may be that this is the way she copes with stress.

She seems to always get angry at you, only to self deprecate once you call her out on her behavior, then you feel bad and apologize.

Afterwards you feel frustrated. Why because you feel had. I think it's really like this.

She acts odd because of her depression, then lashes out at you because of it, you call her out so she does the "oh woe is me" routine to make you look like you are a terrible person, and remove any responsibility and Scrutiny away from her.

It's a defense mechanism. It's how she blocks any pressure to work on herself.

I'm not insinuating that your w is a bad manipulative person. On the contrary she is hurting but is unwilling or scared to deal with it. So she deflects.

The key is in breaking the cycle. When she self hates how about saying

"you're not a bad person, but what you did was wrong/uncalled for/mean"

If she gets upset at that comment just challenge her original action again.

As if to say you can't get mad at me over a promise you broke.

Just repeat that you don't think she is a bad person, but that she made a mistake.

Don't be surprised if she gets very upset, tell her you would like to discuss things but not if you are going to yell at each other.

I think the key point is to stay on topic and remaining calm when she goes into DEFCON 1. Show her that anger is a fruitless communication technique.

Yes anger is a communication technique, just not a very pleasant one.

[Accuray]

Thanks Greenblue,

We never yell at each other, and she doesn't get overtly angry, she gets sad (you're upset because I can never do the right thing with you) .

Then, she walks a fine line between implying I'm impossible to please on one hand, and that she's a bad, inconsiderate or damaged person on the other.

Reflecting on your post, she starts out with "you're impossible to please and your expectations make me upset". When I take your approach and try to calmly diffuse the situation she goes to "your expectations are fine but I don't make you happy or I can't make you happy".

As I've said before, I don't have crazy expectations, she's manufacturing that and pinning it on me by reading the worst and most severe interpretation into what I say. I do have some basic expectations which the therapists all tell me are perfectly reasonable and sometimes she does disappoint me on those. Since I know shes hyper-sensitive I try to avoid pointing those out unless she's nearing a boundary.

I do feel manipulated but to your point I don't think its malicious, its a coping mechanism. I just want it to stop so I'm not always the bad guy by making her feel inadequate.

Thanks again Greenblue.

In the spirit of trying something different I was considering going on the offensive when this starts up and driving the situation rather than trying to placate her. "Yes, when you get out of bed on the weekend and break our routine without saying a word about it, you're being inconsiderate and I want that to stop"

Thoughts about that approach?

Thoughts about my no sex strategy?

Accuray

[greenblue90]

I think it's important to call them out, but of course always with tact.

There's a big difference between calling someone inconsiderate, and saying a particular action drives you apart. In the case of her getting up by herself let her know it sends the wrong signal, whether she meant to or not. This way she'll feel less attacked.

In my sitch I use humor to diffuse the situation but I realize every M is different.

The no sex strategy needs to be properly explained, tell her you realize she feels burdened by your demands, and that it might be better you two build a friendship first.

Often enough sex is used as a tool of control and manipulation. Once again not calling your w names, but it's very easy to say I'm mad so you get no sex, or in your case no passion.

As of now she gives you sex, she doesn't give herself to you. See the difference?

In a way you are accepting scraps, you are taking whatever she decides to throw your way and are expected to be grateful for it. Instead you should focus on getting the sex you want, going no sex sends a powerful message that until she can be the passionate woman you desire you are not interested.

This may force her to reconsider if losing you is worth not tackling her demons.

Here's the catch, you have to be worth fighting for. She in her mind has to be so in love with you that the thought of possibly losing you over this becomes silly.

Right now she values you enough to toss some scraps at you whenever she is not stressed. Does she value you enough to let go of her own sexual hang ups?

Personally I'm in the early stages of being valuable to my W and showing her that she is loved by a wonderful man who knows and respects himself and her, but thats the theory I'm working on.

[Accuray]

Good stuff Greenblue. I did explain the no sex strategy, I told her it was a source of tension and we don't need that right now, we can eliminate that for now and work on other things. She thought that eliminating sex was a step backwards, and that our sex life doesn't create any issues for her. She thinks that abstaining will make me very unhappy and she's worried about that.

I definitely see the different between giving me sex and giving herself to me. That was well explained in Passionate Marriage and I did discuss that with her. That lead to the "you don't accept me as I am" discussion.

In a way you are accepting scraps, you are taking whatever she decides to throw your way and are expected to be grateful for it. Instead you should focus on getting the sex you want, going no sex sends a powerful message that until she can be the passionate woman you desire you are not interested.

Yep. Although I haven't framed it in the context of the second sentence. I definitely haven't suggested I'm doing this because I'm expecting her to change. Maybe it's clearly implied, but if it is, that would feed right into "you don't accept me as I am", and that leads to "if this is going to work, you have to accept me as I am". That's her setting a boundary -- I'm not going to change and if you don't get with the program I'm gone.

Right now she values you enough to toss some scraps at you whenever she is not stressed. Does she value you enough to let go of her own sexual hang ups?

Personally I'm in the early stages of being valuable to my W and showing her that she is loved by a wonderful man who knows and respects himself and her, but that's the theory I'm working on.

Good stuff. She does not value me enough to let go of her sexual hangups, she's drawn a line there. She has on a couple of occasions let me try things that she wouldn't before, but within a couple days she'll circle back around and tell me how hard that was for her and how she really didn't like it at all, but she's willing to do it for me. (Uh yeah, no thanks!)

She's presented that if I demand something sexually she'll do it, but she won't enjoy it and it will permanently make her feel worse about herself, but if I want it, come get it. This doesn't have to do with any deviant sexual fantasies I'm trying to fulfill at her expense, it has to do with trying to engage her as a partner and let me please her versus me always be the one being pleased.

So that's strange -- she values me enough to do whatever I want for my benefit, but if I want to do something for her benefit, she'll walk away.

She'll do what I want if I ask, but will do it with a bad attitude and then circle back around and tell me how bad it was.

On the "no sex" front so far, it's been empowering. It's awesome not going to bed thinking that all the conditions are right, the table is set, and then have it not happen. Now I just don't worry about it and go to sleep. I spend no time wondering if it's going to happen because I know it's not. It's so different not having sex by choice versus not having sex because you've been denied. On the other hand, it hasn't been a full week yet -- we'll see how empowered I feel three weeks from now!

Accuray

[Accuray]

Captain, if you're around you at one point suggested stopping having sex on my own terms. I wrestle with whether I'm doing the right thing and would appreciate your thoughts.

Accuray

[greenblue90]

That's because in her effort to avoid her issues she keeps pulling a bait and switch on you.

She gives, then let's you know she didn't like it.

This way she looks good for having tried, then can guilt you for having put her up to it, and prevent any future attempts.

Tell me if this statement makes any sense

"oh yes I'm willing to do it, but of you ask me to i will hate you for it"

Doesn't sound like she's very willing does it?

I think this is more scrap throwing, with the added bonus of getting another reason to guilt you.

Any and all apprehension to this new plan is just her freaking out because she realizes she can no longer control you with scraps.

This feeling you describe about wondering if everything will be aligned. I can empathize with that. I know what it means when you feel like there is more preconditions for sex than a space shuttle launch.

If you feel that you constantly have to watch what you say or do to get sex, then you are being controlled. Part of the reason many sources recommend a sex moratorium is because once the HD stops constantly bending over backwards and forwards trying to get sex, he can start focusing on truly enforcing his boundaries.

In other words you can truly take your wife to task on her actions once you stop worrying if you're going to get sex that night. It is truly liberating.

She needs to learn that not only are you worth more than scraps, but that you are done rolling over for them.

On the positive side you can now start giving her physical affection without the expectation of sex. Often enough LD spouses will complain that every hug and every kiss is an attempt to initiate. This can make the LD spouse paranoid and distrusting, removing the expectation often makes it easier for the spouse to see that you are showing love through hugs.

I suspect that when you have sex with your wife it must feel like she is a limp doll to both of you. For you it's obvious, she's just not into it. For her she probably feels that you are doing this to "meet your needs". She probably thinks if she doesn't put out you might go looking for another "doll" a prettier one with more interactive features.

She probably can't wrap her head around the notion that you want her. So while you are on a moratorium strive for nonsexual intimacy. Let her feel loved physically without sex. Let her know that you strive to feel close and connected, let her start feeling that connection and hopefully start craving it.

Hope that helps, let me know how things develop.

[Accuray]

Thanks Greenblue, we're getting definitely closer on your analysis I think.

Often enough LD spouses will complain that every hug and every kiss is an attempt to initiate. This can make the LD spouse paranoid and distrusting, removing the expectation often makes it easier for the spouse to see that you are showing love through hugs.

She did complain about this back in August but we took care of that by agreeing that she will be the one to initiate sex and I will never do anything to escalate. That has honestly worked very well in terms of fostering non-sexual physical connection.

I suspect that when you have sex with your wife it must feel like she is a limp doll to both of you. For you it's obvious, she's just not into it. For her she probably feels that you are doing this to "meet your needs". She probably thinks if she doesn't put out you might go looking for another "doll" a prettier one with more interactive features.

It's not nearly that bad! I wouldn't put up with limp doll, that would be over my line. She does put some effort into it, and she does seem to want to make sure I enjoy it *sometimes*. On rare occasions it's really good. It depends where her head is. The worst part for me is when I tell her I enjoyed it or it was good, and she says "I'm glad you enjoyed it". She never says she enjoyed it too or agrees it was good. I confronted her about that a couple weeks ago and she said she felt like her feelings shouldn't matter because it's for me. I'm not sure what to make of that.

Now my MC said that some women just don't have a sex drive and there is nothing wrong with that. He was encouraging me to just accept it, or decide that I need to make an ultimatum and be prepared to leave, but he said I can't ride the fence of just being dissatisfied and pushing for more. If he's right, then I'm being a real bastard by not just accepting her for who she is, and I think about that too.

She probably can't wrap her head around the notion that you want her. So while you are on a moratorium strive for nonsexual intimacy. Let her feel loved physically without sex. Let her know that you strive to feel close and connected, let her start feeling that connection and hopefully start craving it.

Yes, that's the plan, thank you for articulating it for me, that's what I'm looking to do. She has said that she thought I would leave without sex, and I know because of her feeling "unworthy" she doesn't want to believe that I want her.

I also think she's scared to want me to some degree because of all it implies. She's probably looking at it as a lot to sign up for. I read on someone's thread, maybe Crimson's, how a lot of the LBS's tend to be achievers or perfectionists. Even if we don't turn our expectations toward our spouse, just being around us can be exhausting as they assume they are being judged and evaluated for everything. I know she feels that way and I have that effect on her. On a given weekend day, she might sit on the couch and read a book or watch TV, and I'll be outside working on the yard. Although I really don't care at all if she's working or not, the knowledge that I'm working undoubtedly makes her uneasy. Take that example and apply it to everything and achievers are a big pain in the ass to be married to.

I would like W to realize that she is more than adequate for me, I love her. I don't judge her the way I judge and measure myself. The MC seems to "get" this dynamic, and I'm hopeful he can help us work it out next week.

I understand why my personality type can be so hard, but I'm fundamentally a good, giving, honest person and I do believe this is a solveable issue.

Accuray