Putting it back together, but SSM issues linger

[greenblue90]

Accuray
Trust me when I say that my wife acts very much in the same way. Your example of throwing a rope to save her, and then her getting mad because you did really resonated to me.

Whether she accepts help or not does not change the fact that she is probably suffering from depression. That's like saying someone doesn't have cancer because they refuse chemo.

Staying with that metaphor it's like she chooses to self medicate with pain killers her cancer in order to avoid a scary surgery or difficult chemo. The fact that she chooses to pick fights with you is not necessarily your fault, but her using anger to relieve the depression she is feeling. For some (to include my W) picking a fight is easier than accepting sadness. You in essence get scapegoated. When my W is irritable out of nowhere it clues me in to know that she must not be feeling too well.

In my opinion your best course of action is to not get involved in her anger, let her calm down and then tell her that anger does not solve anything, but just makes things worse.

She may start saying that she is not good for you, because she knows no other way. In that case calmly and lovingly tell her that you want to build a good marriage, and that anger is not part of one. It's going to be hard, but it's something you can both work on together.

Trust me the first couple of times you'll probably get more anger. Just stay calm, and remind her that you are both working together towards a good marriage.

She also needs to learn better ways of self soothing. When she is feeling down make sure she gets lots of space to work through her own concerns.

Right now it is easier to pick fights when she feels too down. It is her coping mechanism. Take away yourself from that equation. It'll be rocky since she will be angry at you for taking away her coping mechanism of being angry at you. (crazy huh). IMHO it's for the best though, eventually she'll have to learn to cope without it or she'll have to find a healthier way of dealing with it.

[greenblue90]

One more thing my W has described herself at times as emotion less that nothing makes her feel happy or sad. This is again a smokescreen, because dealing with the issues is too hard. She only says this when I can tell she is seriously depressed. She blames the lack of passion on this feeling. When I read about your W it reminds me of mine in this sense.

I think that it's not because she is incapable of emotion but because she has shut down to keep out bad emotions she can't deal with. Passionate love is one of those emotions being shut out. People suffering from depression believe nothing will ever work out, that they will never get what they need, and if they do it'll just be pulled from underneath their feet. So they block it, you can't miss what you never had kinda deal.

I think schnarch said you like being needed, but you are too afraid to need yourself.

My W too picked fights during vacations, usually towards the end. It's like she was afraid of enjoying herself, like she didn't deserve it, like the world was off somehow. So she created conflict to realign everything and prove once again that good things don't happen to her.

[Accuray]

Thanks Greenblue,

I still don't think you have my W quite identified yet. She doesn't pick fights with me, she rarely does something specifically to get a rise out of me. The dynamic is more that she's insensitive. She says or does things without really thinking about their impact. It's more of a lack of compassion than malice.

My W tends to choose the sadness over the fight. She also does not describe herself as emotionless and she does not direct her anger at me, its more like I get hit by the shrapnel.

She told me tonight that she doesn't want to be open and honest because when she is she risks upsetting me. She says that its easier for her to be unhappy than for me to be unhappy. I pointed out that it doesn't always need to be a tradeoff, that if we discuss it we can find middle ground.

Captain, I thought about your suggestion of ceasing sexual overtures. Since we have the agreement that she initiates, I couldn't do it without discussion. I told her we should eliminate sex until Valentines Day and focus on other elements of the relationship. She was very uncomfortable with that but I insisted.

We will see what happens, I hope it relieves pressure and expectations for both of us. It's a sacrifice but feels worth it.

Accuray

[labug]

Labug: I still don't understand your distinction between setting boundaries and having expectations. If you set a boundary you "expect" it to be respected, right? What's the difference? It just seems to be another way of stating a need. Please expand.

You can expect it but it may not happen. What you can expect is what you can control, which is your reaction to what the other person does. If they respect your boundary, you can offer positive reinforcement or do nothing.

If a clearly set boundary is breached, the expectation is that you will follow through with whatever consequence you set. Boundaries are useless if they are not protected.

Perhaps this thread Boundaries will make it clearer.

Good luck.

[Accuray]

Thanks Labug,

I read the boundaries thread, I really don't think I have an issue there. W knows where my boundaries are and I'm very vocal about them.

I would like her to:

1). Address her depression and unhappiness issues

2). Find a way to enjoy having sex so she can be a partner and not someone who just gives.

3). Make some effort to try the things I enjoy so that we can enjoy them together, as I embrace the things she enjoys

Since she has told me she's not going to do any of those, she has set her own boundary.

If I set a boundary back, it becomes a game of chicken where the "loser" walks away resentful and the "winner" has a hollow victory with a begrudging partner.

That's the challenge with boundaries, you can get a boundary right back, then it becomes who is most willing to walk away? That person has more power and wins. That's the bottom line

Accuray

[labug]

What were your consequences? Without consequences, you're just hoping.

It is very important to set consequences that we are willing to enforce. If you are setting boundaries in a relationship, and you are not yet at a point where you are ready to leave the relationship - then don't say that you will leave. You can say that you will start considering all of your options including leaving - but do not state that you will do something that you are not ready yet to do. To set boundaries and not enforce them just gives the other person an excuse to continue in the same old behavior.

Don't set a boundary back, unless you like that game. You have a boundary that protects you, there is a consequence, you enforce the boundary. That's always the hard part.

This is tough stuff, I struggle with it too.

[Accuray]

Labug,

My post above was confusing, here are the boundaries that I enforce under threat of leaving the relationship:

1) No contact with either OM

2) If you are upset or your needs are not being met, you need to be willing to talk about it. No keeping it in with silent resentment.

3) If you set my expectations by telling me that you will do something, then either do it as agreed, or let me know you will not be doing it. Don't just silently let it go.

4) Maintain sex as part of marriage, with best effort to maintain a once weekly frequency

5) Be faithful -- we have a specific "contract" with regard to what is over the line. If we feel we are tempted, we agree to discuss the temptation before we act on it.

I also have minor boundaries -- "no dogs allowed", when the cat throws up on the furniture or carpet every day, I expect it to be cleaned up as soon as it's noticed, versus being allowed to sit for a couple days.

The "big five" are my line where I'm ready to walk. I readily enforce these. She tried to re-write #2 while we were on vacation, and again tried to last night. I did not back down. She also violated #3 a couple weeks ago -- we have individual bank accounts. She was short and needed to write a big check, so she wrote it on mine and agreed to make a deposit to cover it before it would be cashed. She didn't and I got a $75 overdraft fee. We discussed that in the context of a boundary as well.

The three items I cited above:

1). Address her depression and unhappiness issues

2). Find a way to enjoy having sex so she can be a partner and not someone who just gives.

3). Make some effort to try the things I enjoy so that we can enjoy them together, as I embrace the things she enjoys

Are really more "strong desires" than boundaries at this point. They haven't *yet* crossed the line where they are walkaway factors, but having all three out there certainly stand to set the marriage on a negative trajectory from which it may not recover.

As you can see, none of those are things that I can control, they all require action on her part. As I hope you've seen in my posts, I'm wrestling with how much of this (or all of it) I can just accept and be the best "me" I can be. If I decide I just can't accept it, then it becomes "mission critical" and at some point becomes worthy of a boundary or ultimatum. I'm not there yet, but the pain threshold is definitely hard to deal with right now.

I lived with these three factors for a long time -- but my coping mechanism was to withdraw and to find happiness in other GAL-type activities. In order to DB, I had to seriously re-invest in the marriage emotionally. It's that reinvestment that makes accepting these things difficult now. My W has set a boundary that if I withdraw again, she's done. Therefore, my challenge is to keep my head in the game and muscle through these issues, either learning to accept them, or figuring out how to motivate her to address them, which I realize I may never be able to do.

Hopefully that's a better explanation of where I stand WRT boundaries.

Accuray

[Accuray]

I got a bit of an ultimatum tonight: "If this is going to work, you need to accept me as I am and not expect me to change"

In DB fashion I asked "What does it look like when I am accepting you as you are? What am I doing to indicate that acceptance? How will you know we're there?"

She said that my happiness will not be dependent upon what she does or does not do, that I won't be upset because of something she has or has not done, and I'll stop talking about addressing her sadness.

I believe it was my "no sex until Valentine's Day" plan that provoked this. It's only been a few days, but the self-control that "no sex" implies is attractive to me for now. That does allow me not to be dependent upon her. She won't have the ability not to meet my expectations because I won't have any. We'll see how I feel after 8-10 days when I usually start going nuts, but for now, it feels good.

She's viewing this as a step backwards and it's making her uncomfortable.

With regard to her ultimatum, I listened to it. I told her that I do love her unconditionally, but that accepting sadness in someone you love is challenging.

What I did not say is that it sounds like she's asking for a consequence-free marriage -- who wouldn't want that? I'll do whatever I want, justify it by saying "that's just who I am" and you'll agree not to be disappointed by it. Oh boy, I would love that too. Didn't you have an affair because I wasn't meeting your needs? Now you're asking me to accept the fact that you won't meet my needs, and to ensure you never feel guilty for not doing it.

I don't know, I'm not sure how to respond to that. Maybe I'll leave it for MC.

Accuray

[labug]

You have quite the conundrum.

I have a book entitled Depression Fallout The Impact of Depression on Couples and What You Can Do to Preserve the Bond (sheesh-long title) I've only skimmed it, so can't really recommend it but you might want to look at some of the online reviews. Also google Storied Mind.

[adinva]

Accuray, I think your idea to leave it for MC is a good one. She may be nervous with the MC coming up. I would defer responding to her ultimatum and try to keep status quo for a while, maybe several appointments or several months, so MC can have a chance. It's huge that she's willing to go, and I think it's because this counselor seems to "get" her and is saying the right things to not scare her off. Try to be patient and absorb the feelings that the MC digs up, and let time do its work. It'll be hard. I was "thrown under the bus" too, and understood the need for it, so I was not defensive and I think this helped us make progress.