Putting it back together, but SSM issues linger

[adinva]

Hi Accuray! One - don't mindread. It's a waste of time.

Two - best response to all of those extraneous details about her dinner, "oh, sounds nice."

There's just as must chance that she's head over heels for this gentlemanly metrosexual as that she just found the evening interesting and felt like sharing. (Actually I think more likely the latter than the former.) But you'll not serve your cause by acting jealous or insulted about this guy.

Since you two are piecing, perhaps you could use the opportunity to get to know her better as she currently is. Maybe the fierce independence has gotten old and she enjoyed being pampered a little, ask her? Or is she the same old women's libber and found it annoying? Could be an interesting conversation if there isn't a hint of jealousy about it.

[Accuray]

Thank you both -- I think I'm just a bit nutty. I do think she was more over the top than I would expect for a business trip. Telling me that the guy is single and good looking, then pointing out the qualities she likes that I don't have got my nerves up. She also spoke about it in the same "oh it's nothing" way that she used to speak about OM.

That said, we're spending so much time together and emotional investment that I just don't think she would have bandwidth to get something going, plus I've given her no reason too.

I think I just got triggered and haven't been in a while so it was a double whammy. I'm going to say "all me" on this one.

Thanks for listening, sometimes I just need to be brought back to earth.

Accuray

[Accuray]

Finally found a good IC! Book author, had a segment on TV, marriage specialist, very smart (but pricey, yikes!)

In my first session I felt he nailed what's going on with W -- he said that W does not feel safe in the relationship. "Safe" is a loaded word, but in this context he meant that she feels scrutinized and judged. He said I shouldn't think that's because I've been judgemental, that's what she's bringing to the table.

He said to think of it like being at work and your boss tells you you need to learn something new to continue to do your job. You start working on learning whatever it is, and before you get there, you realize you have to learn something else to understand the first thing, then you start learning that and discover there's something else. Before long you panic and just shut down. You feel you can just never quite get there. He said that W will go there very quickly.

He said that she doesn't step up and give me words of affirmation, etc., because she has convinced herself that whatever she gives me will never be good enough, and that if she does satisfy some need, there will always be another to take it's place and it will never end.

He said that she needs to get to a place where she feels safe -- that nothing is going to come up that's going to make her feel badly about herself.

He said that right now, any request I make fires an inadequacy trigger. Just asking for anything causes her to fear that it will be something she can't do, won't want to do, or won't be able to do it well enough to satisfy me, and consequently she'll be rejected.

He said I probably feel like I'm in a restaurant but can't order anything off the menu because the waiter will have a breakdown over the fact that he hasn't already brought it.

He said that I need to work toward a scenario where my wife is in the grocery store and asks me if I want anything. I say I want cake. She says she doesn't feel like making a cake, so I suggest she buy one. The point is, she can't go wrong -- she's in a grocery store looking for dessert so there's no way to lose.

He also said that she doesn't feel I accept her as she is. He told me I need to do that, to look at her as a package, celebrate the good and reconcile myself to the bad. Seeking to continue to improve the elements I don't like will only be destructive.

He said the only time it's appropriate to ask the other person to change in this scenario is if some shortcoming is "mission critical" to me, meaning that I can't stay in the marriage if things continue as they are.

========================

Lots of food for thought. A refreshing break from my prior IC's who tended to tell me everything that was wrong with W but didn't really challenge ME with what to do to make things better.

None of them nailed the "lack of safety" dynamic.

I discussed some of this with W and she agreed with it. She says that she feels like I walk around rating everything -- that bike ride was an 8, that trip to the beach was a 4, so she feels that anything she does is going to be rated.

Here's the thing -- I don't see how I do that! I DO however frequently talk about my reactions to things, what made me happy, what upset me, etc. I mean, what else is there to talk about?

I would imagine that if I was 100% positive about everything, it would give her the comfort she's looking for, but that's not me. I'm generally upbeat, but things DO bother me. Even if I don't mention it, she can tell when I'm not happy. How can I shift my personality to be happy all the time and never let anything get to me?

I need help here -- what do I do with this feedback?

I *really* want to be the best husband I can be for my W, but I don't see "the plan" in terms of how to approach this.

The really good news is that W agreed to go see him with me next time. That is *huge* because up to now W has completely refused to do MC.

Accuray

[Lostforwords]

A,

That last post is very HUGE......a mean massively HUGE. Your IC pointed out something that seems critical to your relationship both physically and emotionally. Then to have your wife confirm the IC's theories is beyond big.

I think one of the main themes in DB'ing is changing the things you control......and the only thing you truly control is yourself. So how do you change the rating game? Maybe find something in your day to day life, say how the house is being cleaned, and work on changing how your communicate with her about the situation. Say she cleans the kitchen top to bottom, but misses the microwave. Maybe give her words of appreciation for cleaning the kitchen and then clean the microwave yourself. If she asks why, just say you noticed it needed a little more cleaning and you wanted to do your part. Of course this is an example, but hopefully you get where I am coming from.

[Accuray]

Thanks LFW,

I see where you're coming from. Here's the thing though, I don't expect W to clean the kitchen and I never make any commentary on it positive or negative. We do a 50/50 on dishes/cleaning and I *never* complain that what she's done isn't good enough. In fact, I never *complain* about her at all. The issue is in my asks, not my complaints, and what I've asked her for is to (1) do some work on her unhappiness, (2) understand my love language and work with me like I work with hers and (3) help me understand how to make sex more enjoyable for her, so that she enjoys engaging in it with me versus viewing it as a gift she's given me.

That's it -- I don't complain about cooking, cleaning, parenting, finances, friends, family, politics, religion, etc. On those dimensions we're aligned or I'm supportive.

The other challenge is that compliments or positive reinforcements make her feel worse, so it's hard for me to let her know what I'm happy about. The IC said that she will be quick to interpret these as covert criticisms, or expectation setting. (i.e. "you look good tonight" is interpreted as "I wish you put more time into your appearance", or "if you don't look good I won't love you" etc., even though that's not what I mean or what I'm saying, that's where she goes.) I definitely have felt that she turns what I say inside out and then scolds me for the reverse. Now I know WHY she does it, and that feels good.

So in terms of DB and what I can control, this really falls on my shoulders to (1) make every effort not to appear critical or judgemental of people other than my wife, (2) drop the discussion about improving the sex life, (3) stop sharing scenarios in which my expectations weren't met that don't have to do with my W, (4) forget about getting my words of affirmation, and just accept that they're not going to come.

That list honestly scares me. Call it MLC, but I'm looking forward as someone in their mid-40's and saying "can I live like that forever after?" Can I really be happy with someone who doesn't seem to enjoy sex? Can I go through my life not feeling attractive and wanted by my W? Can I accept these things without fostering resentment that will sabotage our marriage down the line?

The cop out is to say that I can live with this for now, and that in the future when things improve, W may change and these things may get better. That might happen, but IC said that is not the path of accepting who she is. His point is that I need to accept all of it now, reconcile the bad, and be ok with the whole package.

What I told IC was that I was reconciled before -- before my W had the affair and dropped the bomb, I had accepted what I was getting and had made myself happy with it. I had filled in the missing pieces for myself. Now that I've gone through all this pain and done all this work on me, I don't *want* to compromise with 80% good. That wouldn't be worth the pain, you know? If a little more pain gets me 90%, let's go for it, I'm ready to do the work, W, I'd like you to come with me for this last bit.

Ugh, at least now it's on the table, but it's a tough thing to look at.

Accuray

[Accuray]

Thinking about it more, if I were judging or criticizing and that was the issue, that would be a straightforward fix and I would have done it already.

The challenge is that she feels like she doesn't measure up when I'm supportive and non-judgmental.

She chose me and I have high standards for myself. My drive to meet my own expectations makes her feel scrutinized, judged, and inadequate because I push myself.

How do I lower my own self-expectations? Am I being fair to myself in doing that? See, it's not what I'm doing to her, it's how she feels about herself because of who I am.

That's what makes this so difficult.

Accuray

[Nblost]

Accuray, this is totally huge!!! Your IC had an insight, wife agreed, and now W is going to go next time? That's great news.

My H agreed to go to counseling in January tonight...so I am also celebrating a bit (but he still hasn't said he'll give up his A...ugh)

Maybe you should hold tight until W gets into counseling and you get the IC's insights on what she is feeling. Maybe she is overreacting because of an issue she has (seems likely) but he may also have ideas on how to improve your interactions.

I feel like I can identify a bit with your W...and I did get annoyed with my H in the past when he was trying to lose weigh/work out. It created some sort of insecurity in me and I wonder if it was an underlying fear for my safety in the relationship. I think the key for me now is finding my own interests/goals so that I can be more confident in my achievements and celebrate H's success.

Still, I'm encouraged for you.

[Accuray]

Nblost,

I cannot imagine the pain of living with someone who is having an affair with your knowledge, that must be just brutal. Congratulations on getting him to agree to counseling, that can only help. Be very diligent about the counselor you choose, I had to go through 3 before I found one I felt good about.

I'm still having a hard time with my own behavior. W and I talked last week about the fact that our ML frequency is falling off again. She told me she would "step it up". We're in an agreement now where she initiates and I do not. I figured this weekend we'd connect. Friday, Saturday, Sunday night just went to sleep together. She has a business trip Tuesday - Thursday this week, then we have family coming. By Monday I was like "ok, I'm sure we'll do it tonight and everything will be fine, keep it together."

Monday night she comes home from work in a bad mood -- things not going well at work. She had to work after the kids went to bed. We eventually went to bed together, watched a little TV and she started passing out. At that point I was disappointed and I couldn't sleep. She noticed I wasn't sleeping and asked (groggy) if I wanted to ML. I told her it was ok, just go to sleep. She was in a bad mood, obviously tired, and I have a *thing* with feeling like I'm "taking" when we ML. There was no chance she was into it, so I decided to let it go. Decided not to cuddle because it would make me too crazy and rolled the other way.

NOT GOOD ACCURAY! She feels she doesn't measure up, has a hair trigger for inadequacy, and I made her feel badly, that she wasn't meeting my expectations.

So angry with myself. I knew I was doing it in the moment but I couldn't deal.

I'm really caught in a spot here -- I want to foster a safe, supportive R for W, but my sex life is unsatisfying and when I go too long, I get sad / pouty / not myself.

I feel I was conditioned over so many years of rejection to feel like if it's been too long, it's never going to happen again. That's a place of fear I need to learn to deal with.

I'm so frustrated with myself today.

Accuray

[adinva]

I really think you need to schedule it. I understand the weight of Friday...Saturday...Sunday, uh oh it hasn't happened yet. It's a lot of pressure that I can recall. If it was every Monday like clockwork, good mood or bad, it's every Monday and the other days there's no anxiety that every day you're expecting and then disappointed. She's letting you down every day from halfway through the week until the end of the week now, and she knows it. Make special cocktails and pretend you're at the beach.

Surely she doesn't like you being pouty for going without so long, and you shouldn't suppress your needs completely, and from what you've said, she really is trying to work with you. Try scheduling it on a fixed day at a fixed time.

Also let go of the idea that it always has to be good and not "taking." It's a lot of pressure too to know that if it wasn't very good then you'll be disappointed all week. If she can please you even if she had a bad day or is tired, I think that would make her feel good.

It's rough Accuray. Your situation is far from perfect, but it's not all bad either.

[greenblue90]

Wow
I spent all day yesterday reading this thread.

I think we are married to the same person. I mean my wife says and does all the same things! It's pretty uncanny.

I think our wives have the same core problem. Which manifests itself in depression, low libido, lack of energy, and more. Even the way they go about avoiding sex is similar.

I saw my W and I in your description of you and your W.

I think your foremost concern should be as seeing this situation as not an SSM issue, but a physical condition. It's easier to feel empathy if you see their situation as an illness you both have to endure, rather than her being "selfish".

I have mix feelings about your wife forcing herself to have sex with you. Mine was doing something similar, eventually she tired of it, and stopped it. Yours sounds to be heading that way.

Instead focus on reducing all expectations of sex. You mentioned OM seemed a better choice because there were no expectations. I think you should steal this from his book.

Your probably better served working on some sexual tension, not expecting it.

Like I've said I'm in a similar sitch so I'm not saying I have the answer just offering more options.

Work on making her feel loved, I know you read 5 LL, but think about it this way every time you expect sex, whether you get it or not you are makin a love bank withdrawal. This means you may need to deposit more than you thought you do, and reconsider how often and at what times you withdraw. No point in making a withdrawal that will lead to no sex, right?

I'm very interested in what your IC has to say, he/she sounds like they figured it out, or at least have dealt with this before.

My W believes that whenever I do something nice it's to get sex. She can't see the love involved in the action or in the sex. My goal is to break this belief through actions not words. To make her feel loved AND desired.

You said your wife wants to feel validated, yet she doesn't want to get it from you. Mine believes I only validate for sex, could yours be feeling the same?

I'll be watching this thread often now, I think we need a very similar solution.