Putting it back together, but SSM issues linger

[Nblost]

Accuray, I hope you are hanging in there. Your comment on reading sex books reminded me of my H. About 5 years ago (when we should have been in counseling but weren't), he bought a big old stack of books about sex. Passionate Marriage, Sex Starved Marriage, Hot Sex, sex, sex, sex... He read parts of some of them and the whole time, it made me feel more and more inferior. I tried reading parts of them too, but I kept feeling like these books weren't necessarily getting at my issues. I think for me, I needed my H to be more romantic, plan things for us, spend time with me, etc. (I think one of my key LLs is quality time) So, I ordered some books on fixing our marriage and I think H's reaction was likely, "we don't need a bunch of fluff on how to talk...we need to have more/better sex and then I'll feel like talking"

In reality, Sex Starved Marriage was probably exactly the book we needed, but it got lost a bit in the shuffle and I reacted a bit negatively back then to the title...sadly, I thought because we were having sex...my H couldn't really be sex starved (I now know that is wrong).

I think we were both right in our own ways. I think our problem was...we each knew what we didn't like, but instead of finding a forward-looking solution--we just complained about the problem for awhile and then just thought the other person wasn't willing to change. We didn't proactively work on things, actively love the other person and treat them how they wanted to be loved.

Anyway, I totally get why you would be reading books on improving your sex life...but it may be coming across badly to your wife.

Here's a bad analogy. Let's say I'm a fabulous cook and I love making dinner every night. However, I really wish my husband would join me in the kitchen and help me. What do I do? I buy 10 fabulous cookbooks written by famous chefs and sit in bed reading them every night. Does this inspire my husband to feel like picking up one of the cookbooks? Probably not...I'm already great and now it seems like I'm even further ahead of him. Not exactly on point...but that's kind of how I felt when H was reading the books.

I really think the key is communication and that's probably best with counseling. I wish your wife would go.

[Accuray]

I think that's great Nblost, I do appreciate your analogy and it's a good one. I wasn't really reading "sex books" per se, I've been reading relationship books. "Passionate Marriage" was really the first one that talked about how essential a good sex life is to a healthy marriage and that did make me see the potential and want to explore it. Based on the dynamics its creating, I have stopped reading it.

Last night was bad -- I had my IC appointment last night and came armed with the good feedback I've received here -- that I'm making it "all about me", that I'm unfairly putting pressure on my wife, that my expectations are too high, and that I need to learn to appreciate what I'm getting versus worrying about what I'm not.

My IC basically turned that on it's head. She said that my expectation for a good sex life is perfectly reasonable, and to want to be able to please my wife is not a need I should feel badly about, even if it is all about me. She said that the fact that my wife won't go there with me leaves a hole in our marriage that I'm trying to fill, and that it's ok.

She said that I am doing the things that most women love, lots of QT, positive attention. Connection during the day with IM and e-mail. Focusing on the two of us, acts of service, etc. She said that I am not making this all about sex, that I'm working on the marriage from all angles, and obviously trying to improve my approach to things, including going to therapy.

She encouraged me to talk to my wife about it again, and to suggest that I don't necessarily need her to have an O, but just tell me what I can do to make the experience better for her than it is now. She didn't feel like I am pressuring my wife or being unrealistic -- she said I'm just looking for something that is a reasonable expectation from any marriage.

I told her that my W has told me that she's not interested in making sex better -- it's not who she is, and even talking about it makes her upset. The IC said that's cr@p, everyone wants to enjoy sex, and if W wasn't able to admit that then there are other things going on, but that she can't help further without talking to W. We agreed that basically the only way through this is if W will agree to see a sex therapist with me.

Sitting there hearing all that, I felt validated, whereas walking in I felt like I was being unreasonable and unfair to W. When I told IC that I didn't think there was any way that W was going to agree to see a therapist of any kind, she said "then your only option is to suck it up, and I feel badly for you" (which is effectively the feedback I got here).

So last night W asked me what we discussed in therapy and I shared some of that. I told her that I acknowledged it was all about me, but that I would like it if we could find a way that W could take more pleasure from sex, so I wouldn't feel like I was always receiving / taking. I'd also like the opportunity to give.

W got very upset. She said she thinks I'd be happier with someone else, someone who was more affectionate, expressive, and sexual. She feels like I'm asking her to change and not accept who she is, despite the fact that SHE has accepted her darkness and her issues. I reassured her that I love her, talked about all the things I love about her, and all the things that we do well together and are so good about our marriage. Unfortunately this is the one issue that remains a source of unhappiness and I'd like to work with her to address it.

When talking to the IC, I told her that W never gives me any feedback about our sex life, she never tells me what she likes, she doesn't tell me what she doesn't like. She says "do what you want" and that makes me feel terrible, like I'm using her. When I tell her a particular episode was "good", she says "I'm glad you liked it". She never says she liked it too.

IC told me that this makes me feel undesired and unloved, and in the worst case abandoned, and that's why it's so hard for me.

W told me last night that telling me what she likes sexually makes her cry and feel badly about herself -- she said "is that what you want?"

I asked if she could tell me just one time -- that way I'll know and she won't have to discuss it again, but it would make things better forever. She said that if she tells me she will permanently feel worse about herself, that it will "diminish her". Then, she got angry and said "Let's go, let's do it now" in an angry tone. I told her no, that's not what I'm looking for. I'd like her to WANT to work on it with me, not to give in out of frustration and anger. (I was happy that I was able to turn that down in the moment, but it was so tempting to get some feedback! That just would have been the wrong way to get it.)

So we agreed last night that we're at an impass. If W works on enjoying sex more, she will feel worse about herself permanently, but if she doesn't I'll be perpetually unhappy. She kept saying she wants me to be happy, but that she accepts who she is, and she's not willing to work on this. I told her that the cost for her of addressing it seems to be higher than the cost to me of coping, so I won't bring it up again. I hugged her after that and told her that as long as we love each other, and have so many good things in our marriage, we'll find a way through and it will work out, but we both clearly felt badly and had a hard time getting to sleep.

So that's where I am. It's frustrating to me that W is so quick to suggest I should be with someone else. Since she was a WAS, it triggers me that she really wants out of this marriage but doesn't want to be the one to pull the trigger, so she's trying to push me to walk away on my own. Most times I really don't believe that, but when she suggests that she can't make me happy I get triggered.

So time to work on sucking it up and getting happy being a "taker" which is so not who I am.

Thoughts?

[Nblost]

Accuray,
You are being SO reasonable and caring. I'm really concerned about your W...I think she really needs help. It sounds like she has some major insecurities or something else going on.

Now, when my H had complained to me about sex and expressed what I thought were unreasonable demands...I lashed out and told him to go find someone who could make him happy (gee, I wonder why he's now in an A? :-( ) Just typing this paragraph puts tears in my eyes.

However, I didn't mean it...I just felt so inadequate and like no matter how hard I tried...I would fail him. It wasn't about him, it was more about me and more about our inability to move forward and find a happy medium.

In the end, I do think you deserve to be happy and have someone who will at least try to meet you halfway. If your wife truly can't do that, you'll end up living a life that's probably not going to satisfy you. I doubt my H would have said he'd have an A either...but you may eventually find yourself in a situation where you have that opportunity and you may not be able to resist. I wish my H had forced the sex issue earlier rather than not addressing it and falling into an A which is now so much more damaging.

Anyway, you are doing the right thing by getting counseling and I think your counselor is right on in her advice. I also don't think you should be afraid to stand up to your wife and eventually, you may need to give her an ultimatum around getting help or communicating with you or you can't be in this marriage.

Truly, you are learning a ton about relationships and about yourself. I hope your wife will eventually see that.

[Accuray]

Thanks Nblost, I agree my W needs help -- but she's not willing to do it and I can't make her. She told me she's not worth the therapist's time. That drives me crazy because she's so successful at her job, she's a great mother, and she has so much good going on.

There is no way I would have an A, just won't happen. Having been on the other side of it, I *know* how damaging it is. Even without that knowledge I wouldn't do it -- that's not who I am. An A usually starts with an overture that is just slightly over the line, a comment that can be taken either way. It's up to the receiving party to then indicate they are willing to escalate. I always shut that down. I don't let it go to the next step. I love my wife, and I am committed to my family.

I did stand up to my wife last night -- the impact is that a person who already feels badly about herself now feels worse, and like more of a failure. Normally as soon as things head south I give up on my request and start reassuring her. Last night I held my ground. She told me she WILL communicate with me if I want, but that she will be permanently diminished as a result, and I don't want to be responsible for that. She's letting me know in advance that she will resent me for it. I started going into reassurance mode this morning, so I'm going to pave it over.

I don't think the ultimatum is the way to go -- I've already put my feelings on the line and have gotten my answer.

Therefore my choices are to walk or to cope, and for right now, I guess I work on cope. It's so frustrating that "I want you to enjoy sex more" makes me the bad guy. I understand that it's all about me, and I understand that I am projecting what I think is best for my W versus listening to her tell me she doesn't want to enjoy sex. That's just not a message I can accept -- and that's my issue. I think I could understand much better if I were demanding that she get into bondage with me, or engage in a 3-way, or something like that where it would clearly have nothing to do with her. In this case, I'm saying "this is great, it's a great feeling, I want you to share it" and that makes me selfish.

Aaarrrrgghhhh

Accuray

[Lostforwords]

Accuray....Feeling you brother. Definitely feeling you.

I see you do seem to focus a lot on your interactions with your wife. How those interactions may lead to pressure...wittingly or unwittingly is a tough path to walk. I think for the most part you are doing pretty good.

I ask for a minute that you switch thinking gears for a second and never bring what I talk about up to your wife...NEVER....because it really isn't your burden to bring up or carry. What do you know about your wife's sexual history prior to you? It seems that she has surrounded sex with a magnitude of negative emotions. To the point that just talking about sex seems to have a very negative impact on her. Way beyond what seems normal to me. I expect the negativity, but I just keep feeling it is excessive.

Case in point is my wife. She knowingly at this point has used sex as a tool for power and manipulation. She was aware of this, but only after a lot of direct scrutiny did she start recalling why she does. In therapy she revealed that the boy she lost her virginity to left her the day afterwards. This hurt her immensely...but even worse created in her subconscious a thought of "I will hurt you before you hurt me" mentality (her father leaving when she was 12 added to the situation). She went so far in her youth as to date the boy's best friend and then eventually marry a guy he was living with. The therapist reasoned that all of that was to get back at the boy. Of course the shock waves of that can still be felt today.

One of the things I have learned through my wife's MLC, and others on here, is that the ghosts of the past sometimes really do affect today. We have no control of them, but they are there...lurking...hiding.

Once again...Don't ask your wife about her past. It will makes things very ugly....just a thing to think about.

[Accuray]

Thanks Lostforwords -- too late! We've mutually discussed our prior sexual history over the course of our marriage. My DB Coach and both the IC's said that it sounds like she was the victim of some type of sexual trauma like molestation, but I really don't believe that to be the case.

What she has told me is this: she had sex many times when she didn't want to. Not that it was forceful or rape, she would just have sex with people out of a sense of obligation because she felt she had set the expectation by flirting with them, going back to their place, whatever. I get the sense that she felt once she was on the path, it was more difficult for her to derail it than to just give in to it, and that put her in situations where she was having sex with people she really didn't want to have sex with.

I'm sure if those ended up being one night stands, that hurt her self esteem. By the time I met her, she was beyond that, successful in her job, and was coming out of a monogamous 4 year relationship where she had at one point wanted to marry the guy and he moved out. He subsequently proposed to her but she had moved on.

Here's where I come out -- we've been together for 17 years. During that time, I really have done my best to be supportive. I've never been critical of her at all, and I really don't ask or expect her to do anything for me other than to have sex with me on some regular basis.

Our marriage did become sex-starved which precipitated a negative cycle of me withdrawing and her feeling worse about the QT she wasn't getting. I was never mean, I just took the relationship for granted and decided to GAL because I wasn't getting my needs met at home. I decided to try to be happy in other ways. This made her increasingly passive aggressive and irritable. I would ask her how her day was and she would snap at me, which would make me retreat further. It came to a head when I discovered she had multiple EA's with co-workers and a couple bar night flings. At that point she demanded divorce and was done with me.

From that point I have DB'd, I've done everything I can to put things right in every way. My bottom line is that I think I have demonstrated that she can do the worst thing imaginable to me and I'll still be here for her. I stayed. If she can't trust me after all this time, and become intimate and vulnerable, how is she going to find happiness with anyone else?

I guess if she doesn't work this out with me, it's going to come back to bite her in any relationship she gets involved with going forward right? Is that the kind of life she wants? It's hard for me to accept that it's ok with her, but I can't control that.

Accuray

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

I've dropped in from time to time since mid-October to keep up. I've been pretty busy and just haven't taken the time to write.

Anyway....

She told me she's not worth the therapist's time.

That should tell you tons right there. So here is an interesting question for you (and her): If she's not worth the therapist's time, does she think she's worth yours (and/or the the time you are spending to save a marriage in addition to just having a marriage)? She can be pretty sure that YOU think she's worth the time and effort. But does she think she's worth YOUR effort?

If she answers "yes," then the next question is why, in the context of not being worth the therapist's time, is she worth yours?

And if you get a "yes" answer, the reason(s) has(have) to be something other than generalizations. If she all she gives you are reasons that could be applied to any other man or woman that she happened to share a household with, then she's just giving you an answer to stop the discussion (which sounds like what she has threatened you with).

That drives me crazy because she's so successful at her job, she's a great mother, and she has so much good going on.

I wish to dissuade you from this way of thinking because, quite simply, it is BS (to be very blunt). I know you love her and don't wish to speak badly of her. Successful people, men or women, DO NOT HAVE AFFAIRS WITH COWORKERS. Any supervisor conducting a performance review and evaluating the interactions and disruptions associated with an employee's behavior that overlooks an interoffice affair is doing your wife (and her coworkers) a huge disservice.

As for being a "good mother"...maybe if she were a single mother and you and everyone else was out of the scene and she was doing it all alone. But a good mother does not knowingly and intentionally shutout the children's father (you) from both sex (unless there is a specific and measurable medical condition that prevents sex) and communication (see below). She has willfully and knowingly been doing both. She may not have started out that way but once pointed out, it becomes a choice she is making.

There is no way I would have an A, just won't happen. Having been on the other side of it, I *know* how damaging it is.

A POV and an experience that you and I share. If you care about your marriage and you've been through the receiving end of the other person having an affair, you know the damage it causes for you. You'll presume this will be experienced in a similar way on the other end. There is no guarantee, of course, and she may "want" you to have an affair to end the marriage for cause.

She told me she WILL communicate with me if I want, but that she will be permanently diminished as a result, and I don't want to be responsible for that. She's letting me know in advance that she will resent me for it. I started going into reassurance mode this morning, so I'm going to pave it over.

I don't think the ultimatum is the way to go -- I've already put my feelings on the line and have gotten my answer.

You are the one that got an ultimatum that says, essentially..."don't communicate with me or require me to communicate with you or else I will be 'permanently diminished' (whatever that means) and I will resent you for that." And that's somehow your responsibility? I don't want to diminish the seriousness of this because its as if she has told you that she will commit suicide or sink the marriage if you talk about this or do something about this predicament.

Those are the words of someone trying to use your love and your love of the ideal of marriage as a hostage or to bully you in this relationship to avoid doing anything about a potential fatal blow to the marriage.

I know you don't wish to consider this and when you do, in passing, your view is that you are the one that has to walk away.

But here is a mental exercise for you: what would happen if after this recent ultimatum you've been served you just stop having sex with her. No announcement that you are going to do that, no drama about it, just stop. No more advances or suggestions on your part. Isn't that what she wants? Isn't her ideal of sexual fulfillment being nonsexual with you? Wouldn't you be fulfilling her wishes, her dreams and her vision as herself?

It would be up to you to choose what to do if she made the advance (and also up to you to choose to point out that, according to her, it is simply because its something that she agreed to do. Do you release her from that?).

And while you are at it, what if you stop talking to her about your lack of sex life. I know (and share) your idea of sex versus making love. Same thing, no announcement, no drama, just stop. And if asked, you could tell her that you are just giving her what she wanted and warned you about (about her permanent, as opposed to temporary diminishment and resentment).

How would that be any different than what you are facing once again? That's part one of the exercise.

Now here is the other part of the exercise. What if, say during the holidays, you told her that she has one month to find a new place to live and that you are willing to help her do that. And that if she didn't, she'd come home at the end of that time and find her stuff sitting on the curb? No tying it to any specific outcome. She was the one who had affairs, she was the one whom, upon discovery wanted a divorce. She is the one who wants things to remain the way they were before her affairs were discovered.

I know this is tough to think through, I've been through that once before with an ultimatum. And although I was willing to do almost anything to save the marriage, I ulimately moved her out. But it was not something I did without having done a great deal of thinking about and through before it finally happened.

Do you think that she'd be any less "permanently diminished" or resentful if the alternative you put in front of her was to seek other lving arrangements?

Its not walking away...its putting her out, particularly since you feel you've got your answer.

I'm not suggesting you do this, just think through the scenario.

The alternative, if she is ultimately unwilling to be sexual with you (which is what she has told you. She is *doing sex* for you, not because she feels she wants it to be part of the relationship or needs it to be part of the relationship.

You are now at the age I was when my current wife called the end to sex. More than 14 years later we aren't at each others throats and there is a level of comfort and predictability that I have with this woman sharing my house. Although there is caring, this is not the passionate marriage that I sought. And although in recent discussions she has indicated that she never really intended to have this marriage become nonsexual, she can offer no explanation why, if she thought that for more than 14 years and thinks that today, she has never attempted or made any advance in being sexual.

I don't know if I could actually have another marriage where it felt continually passionate. I know how a passionate marriage feels (at least on my end) and there is some evidence that there are people and marriages that meet or exceed that ideal. I was 43 the last time we were sexual together. At age 58 I miss the closeness that can develop through sex transcending to lovemaking.

That is what you face if you stick with it and she's not willing or able to be in the marriage with you.

More later

The Captain

I'm not suggesting you do this beyond a thought exercise.

[Young at Heart]

....W got very upset. She said she thinks I'd be happier with someone else, someone who was more affectionate, expressive, and sexual.

....She feels like I'm asking her to change and not accept who she is, despite the fact that SHE has accepted her darkness and her issues.

...She said that if she tells me she will permanently feel worse about herself, that it will "diminish her". Then, she got angry and said "Let's go, let's do it now" in an angry tone.

...So we agreed last night that we're at an impass. If W works on enjoying sex more, she will feel worse about herself permanently, but if she doesn't I'll be perpetually unhappy. She kept saying she wants me to be happy, but that she accepts who she is, and she's not willing to work on this. I told her that the cost for her of addressing it seems to be higher than the cost to me of coping, so I won't bring it up again. I hugged her after that and told her that as long as we love each other, and have so many good things in our marriage, we'll find a way through and it will work out, but we both clearly felt badly and had a hard time getting to sleep.

...Thoughts?

Accuray;

I would like to share a few thoughts with you based on your post above.

First, I think that trying to save a marriage is important. However, just as it takes two to wreck a marriage, it takes two to save one.

In reading the above, I see your wife as afraid of change and as being comfortable with the way things are.

I read that you aren't comfortable with the way things are and want more out of your life.

One of the truths I believe in is GAL and improving oneself. You are working on making yourself better and happier. We should all try to make ourself better. We should all work on improving ourselves every day of our life.

Your wife is saying she doesn't want to change or have anything change in her life. Well, life isn't suppose to work that way. You should explain to your wife that you want to live life and that involves change, struggle and pushing yourself. You should tell her that you know that you can't force her to do anything or force her to change. However, in a similar way, she can't force you not to change. I would tell her that you intent to change and improve yourself and your life and you would like her to change with you and always be part of your life, but if she doesn't want to, then that is her decision.

I think that you statement to her that your coping is the right decision (is actually the wrong decision) and is selling yourself short. Your coping so she doesn't have to push herself will not allow you to reach your own real potential. That doesn't mean you should be going out and dumping your wife. I still think that working on trying to improve your R is important.

If I were in your shoes, I would ask her to go to the Therapist with you so that she can help you and understand the issues you are going through. Tell her that you want her support and want her to be by your side.

Good luck to you.

[Accuray]

Captain,

First of all, I again wanted to thank you for how much you helped me when I was at my lowest. It truly was the worst and hardest thing I've gone through and your advice and perspective was invaluable. Thanks again for taking the time to weigh in.

If she's not worth the therapist's time, does she think she's worth yours (and/or the the time you are spending to save a marriage in addition to just having a marriage)? She can be pretty sure that YOU think she's worth the time and effort. But does she think she's worth YOUR effort?

She has told me several times that she thinks I'm "unlucky" to have her. This seems to be a rollercoaster however, as othertimes she seems plenty self-confident. I have discerned a behavior pattern that when challenged, she tends to either get belligerent (trivial matters) or fold and break down (emotional matters). I do appreciate your point as when she says things like that, it does imply that my time is also not valuable. I think she would answer that she is NOT worth my time, because that's the easier answer and requires no expectations for her to live up to. I think you've assumed she would answer differently.

With regard to your comments about the impacts of an affair on job success and parenthood, yes, I see your point and obviously I felt that way at my angriest. She has changed jobs, and at her new job she's a top 5% performer in a professional capacity, and she always operates at the level in terms of results. I would be surprised if her co-workers at her last job knew what was going on. WRT being a mother, I was mainly talking about her interactions with the kids -- our parenting styles are very aligned (other than having affairs), and I appreciate how she works with me to raise our children.

My problem here is that I have a hard time reconciling her low self-esteem with her personal achievements.

But a good mother does not knowingly and intentionally shutout the children's father (you) from both sex (unless there is a specific and measurable medical condition that prevents sex) and communication (see below).

I would go even farther and say that a good person does not knowingly enter into a marriage when they have no sex drive without disclosing this fact to their intended spouse.

That said, we were both historically guilty of withholding communication, and now we are communicating quite well with one exception, which FOR ME is a big one. For her, it's not important. She also has historically provided "sex", although not love-making, and continues to do so. From her perspective, providing sex is an "act of giving" and should be appreciated as such. She feels I should appreciate what I'm being given versus complaining about what I'm not, although I'm sure you can appreciate my perspective on that.

I don't want to diminish the seriousness of this because its as if she has told you that she will commit suicide or sink the marriage if you talk about this or do something about this predicament.

I didn't read her ultimatum as that serious. She's effectively saying that she is an unhappy person, and has to work very hard to cope. She's saying that if I ask her to talk about having a more fulfilling sex life, and instruct me in how to please her, that she will be forever more unhappy than she is now, and can't explain why. She's willing to do it, but is basically pointing out what the consequence will be.

I COULD tell her to do it anyway and trust in the fact that she's being overly dramatic, or that the consequences won't be as severe as she is projecting, but would you want to take that bet? Right now I don't. In that context, I also can't imagine the experience would be very good for either of us.

Those are the words of someone trying to use your love and your love of the ideal of marriage as a hostage or to bully you in this relationship to avoid doing anything about a potential fatal blow to the marriage.

Adinva also perceives my W's behavior as aggressive / manipulative. I have wrestled with those thoughts. If that is the case, she's very good at it because to look at her, she seems to be operating from a real place of desperation and hurt. The jury is still out on this. I don't believe that she tries to "bully" me in any other area of our relationship, so I'm tempted to accept what she's telling me as being genuine.

But here is a mental exercise for you: what would happen if after this recent ultimatum you've been served you just stop having sex with her. No announcement that you are going to do that, no drama about it, just stop. No more advances or suggestions on your part. Isn't that what she wants? Isn't her ideal of sexual fulfillment being nonsexual with you? Wouldn't you be fulfilling her wishes, her dreams and her vision as herself?

I have tried that. The last time I did it we went well over a year and she didn't even notice, and still denies that it could have been that long. Now that I've shined such a spotlight on the desire gap she's conscious of it and if I go too long, she gets VERY nervous that something is wrong, gets very unhappy and starts to break down. It's not about the sex for her obviously, she doesn't want me to be unhappy with her for any reason. She doesn't want to have to live up to any expectations.

The "no sex / no sex talk" challenge feels very passive aggressive to me. It's not really what I want -- what would be the point? If it would be to punish her, I don't think it would yield the intended result.

With regard to "moving her out" -- I couldn't do that to my children. I don't believe she will fight for our marriage -- I think she's more likely to give up and resign herself to being alone (for now). She'll tell herself that she's gotten what she deserves and just cope with it. I just don't think she's up to the mental challenge of being the one responsible for keeping this going.

This weekend we had a long car ride and I asked her why she doesn't want to address her deep-seated unhappiness and feelings of unworthiness that DON'T have to do with me. She says it's because she's accepted them and learned how to cope. She says it's part of who she is, because those feelings have been there for as long as she can remember. She asked me to think of it like she has a limp that could be surgically corrected. Sure, she could walk normally if she went through surgery and physical therapy, but the pain of that *process* is not worth it to her, because having the limp is something she's accepted about herself.

She told me that the pain of the therapy process is not worth it to her, she'd rather continue to cope and she's accepted this about herself. She has asked me to accept it too.

The issue, of course, is that the limp would probably only impact her, but her unhappiness impacts everyone who cares about her. How can I ask her to do that "for me", however, given how she feels about it? I don't know that I can -- I think my decision is to cope with it as well, or walk away.

Captain, your situation is extreme -- what keeps you in a marriage that has been without physical intimacy for so long? Why does your W stay in the M?

I very much appreciate your mental exercise, I want to make sure I understand what you were looking for me to take from it. Do you think I've understood? If I've missed the point, please elaborate.

I do NOT feel good about resigning myself to 14 years of one-sided passion. I am wrestling with the following:

1) Is she just fundamentally not physically attracted to me? If not, it would seem that it's not fixable. How can I determine this without needy questions? This has been a nagging doubt for me forever. Did she marry me because I was "safe" versus someone she felt passionate about?

2) Am I sabotaging myself by being the more expressive partner? When I tone down the expressiveness, she starts to panic and believes I am withdrawing, but when I am expressive and affectionate, she doesn't really reciprocate. When she thinks I'm withdrawing, she does make some efforts to tell me she loves me, etc. Should I just let her panic and be more aloof? This feels like playing games to me and not being true to who I am.

3) Our relationship is doing much better overall. Is there a chance that this works itself out? Should I be patient and revisit in 6 months when we've had more time to heal? I acknowledge that I like to have things fixed right away. I try to optimize. Will time heal all wounds?

Thanks Captain,

Accuray

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

As I reflect upon your reply and some of the characteristics you've written about, it has the sound of "hormones." I say this from the sound of the swings back and forth and/or the dichotomy of self-confidence.

Some of what you've describe sounds at least a litlle bi-polar and as she has been aware of the depressive aspects of herself and her interactions.

I'll give you some short answers to your questions at the end and I may revise and extend when I have a bit more time.

1) Unless she has actually told you that she is or is not physically attracted to you, there is no real way to know except to ask. There are different ways to ask that question. Be aware that the "needy" concern is probably more yours than hers (i.e., she might not here the question as being needy. Being needy is more characteristics of requiring constane reassurance (e.g., her response when you seem to withdraw from her POV).

2)IMO, there is never anything wrong about being the more expressive partner as long as it doesn't become a competition. But sometimes operning ourselves up to share the feelings comes back to bite us in unexpected ways or is perceived very differently than we mean for it to be received.

3) It will always work out, though there are no guarantees in what way it will work out or that it'll work out in the way we would like. My first marriage taught me that.

More later

The Captain