Upside Down

[stillhopin]

Agreed, definite back slide. The moment I get engaged in such conversations the alarm bells start going off inside. I'm just not always successful keeping myself from getting sucked in. Good point about taking the blame for everything, this came up as well and started the "I don't like who I am either and that is why one reason I'm doing this and standing up for myself" speech.

Oh well trying not think about it as today is even tougher. Today she leaves for her parents for the next 4 days without me and the kids. It's time to drop the bomb on all of them. She's afraid of it being high drama (i'm sure both her mom and dad will give her the repeating history spiel). But this morning she says she thinks there's a chance it may not be so bad and they'll support her - in my head I was thinking "seriously? you must be kidding" but I didn't say anything. I just tried to be supportive and told her I wish I could be there for her. I told her she could call me if she needed to talk about it. I'm trying to be supportive, don't know if that's the right thing to do or not but at least it's the opposite of telling her she doesn't have to do this and she can change her mind. It just feels like another nail in our coffin though. The kids are off to school and she went to the gym. I sat and cried for while. Been a while since i did that so must have needed it. I just need to focus on making the thanksgiving break fun for the kids. (and myself)

[workinghardguy]

When an S is in the mid-years thing of 'finding themselves' their spouse is the first one to get the brunt of their anger. Unresolved stuff from earlier. Abandonment feelings from their younger years, sure. You will be blamed for this n' that, ya. Some of it will be unfair. Helps to understand this though so you don't go blaming yourself for 'everything' W says. Helps to put this in perspective.

Listen to these words Wayne... I wish I'd realized this earlier on my sitch. I have not been the perfect H, BUT I've been good I think. Picking up Christmas gifts this morning I thought back to how my W has always been amazed at how good a gift giver I am. How I always seem to get just the right gift for her and the kids. Duh.. it's because I listen and remember.

Anyway, I digress... as my sitch has worn on I can see much of this about my W's problems. Deep-seated problems especially with abandonment and security. Some of my behaviors exacerbated those issues for her, but they didn't create them. My own 180s and self-improvement have been aimed at changing those behaviors that make it worse for her. But I'm not blind that unless she can get at those core issues we'll be back here again someday even if we do recon. So don't take this all on you.

But this morning she says she thinks there's a chance it may not be so bad and they'll support her - in my head I was thinking "seriously?

I'd prepare yourself for your W getting more support than you expect, perhaps even a lot more. Blood is thicker than everything and family does not want to rock the boat usually. They may even wonder in private, but to her they will be #1 fans. I had held out hope my W's family would be of value... no dice. I don't actually think my MIL wants this to happen or thinks it's a good idea, but the distance from that to actually taking a stand or saying something is a very, very long road.

[Coyote]

Had a more of a think on this. As an add on to the above,

"And I responded so now you're going to punish the rest of us. Of course she stormed off."

She already knows much of this. At the moment though, she's not too concerned with implications. She's in a cycle of turmoil and the only thing she knows at the moment is to run.

Note here: Do NOT debate this type of thing with her for a 'very' good while (aka., the consequences of what she's doing.) Only when the two of you are in a 'much' better place can this type of thing be approached. And at that, only if she brings this up first. Keep your cool. (Another Note: If you backslide on stuff, most of us do from time to time, learn from it. Forgive yourself then move on and try not to do it again.)

Definitely, she will not like to hear that you are trying to dissect her thinking. W will see this as a form of manipulation. This is just for your own understanding and peace of mind.

Another way to say the above,

"If you feel this is what you need to do then I won't hold you back. When the two of us click and work together we really have something. Yes, I will miss this. However, I hope things go well for you. Naturally, if you want to talk my door is always open. But again, if this is what you feel you need to do then I won't hold you back."

Adjust as you see fit,

Coyote Lad

[Coyote]

Oh, have to add another. A quote from workinghardguy,

"I'd prepare yourself for your W getting more support than you expect, perhaps even a lot more."

When a spouse is in 'run' mode they will tend to seek those that support their feelings of needing to...well...run. Some will say otherwise but a running S doesn't usually like this. They tend to gravitate to those who support their current line of thought, running. (Sigh) I know it can be frustrating.

Workinghardguy did touch on something important here. But what should be read here is try not to go on the war path on family and friends. This has the potential to start a blaming cycle of 'you did this' or 'you did that to ruin my marriage' oh ya. Save that energy for working on things you need to work on. Water off a duck's back so to speak...

[stillhopin]

Thank you guys so much. I know its true what you're telling me. When the clock seems to your biggest enemy it's tough sometimes (ok, a lot of the time) to keep all of that in perpective.

I practice the db stuff pretty effectively but notice that backslides can be small and easy to do. This is especially true when when the the conversation is good and the vibes seem right. And the results don't always speak for themselves. I guess hoping for something to sink in is a fools game.

I like the stuff about supporting her and have tried to do that. However, I even wonder about that because supporting her is something I've tried to do so this is not exactly a 180 for me. Though it might be given the situation, I have noticed that she seems surprised when I'm trying be nice. Such a mind game.

Anyway, partly into thanksgiving day without her and it hurts. I'm glad the kids are with me and we're headed to see some family. I'll try to focus on them.

Thanks for the support and Happy Thanksgiving.

[Coyote]

Surprisingly, or not so surprisingly, I'm still learning from backslides after 6 years. The idea is to get them smaller, less frequent but most of all, learn from them.

If you make an oops, apologize. Make amends if needed. Discuss it even. Make a note of it then try not to repeat the same ones again. Then carry on. You'll get better with this as it goes along.

"I like the stuff about supporting her and have tried to do that. However, I even wonder about that because supporting her is something I've tried to do so this is not exactly a 180 for me..." But then you continue with, "I have noticed that she seems surprised when I'm trying be nice."

You answered yourself here. Try changes that are positive and you figure are worth it. Take note over a couple weeks. If it's no good, for both you and/or her, drop it. Try another. Remember, these changes are as much for yourself, or even more for yourself than they are for her.

Much like putting an oxygen mask on in an airplane that blows a window. You have to put yours on first before you can help another. Otherwise you'd be unconcious and of no help to anybody.

Note: Watch for small changes too, aka, " she seems surprised." They're usually more frequent than the big ones and can be just as telling. Just not as dramatic.

"I guess hoping for something to sink in is a fools game."

I understand your frustration but remember this, and you will hear it again, 'Lasting change takes time.'

This does not hurry itself overnight. This is a process of hitting smaller pieces one at a time. If you try to hurry things along, aka., 'you're my only one and you should drop this silliness right now...' it will definitely set things back. Again, if you make an oops, refer to the above.

"Such a mind game."

A lot of DBers misunderstand this at first. I did. Playing 'mind games' would imply you are trying to alter 'her' behaviour. Not so, you are trying to alter 'your' behaviour, for the better. Much like a dancer changing their step. The other changes there's to follow along.

[stillhopin]

Thanks, good comment about the mind game. And about the need for patience.

What I struggle with regarding db'ing is understanding what things actually constitute a backslide if the result isn't obvious, such as a fight or other obvious reaction. For example, I've avoided "I love you" but not entirely, and when she was leaving on this current trip that kind of talk led to a big embrace, she initiated it and I could feel her hugging not just going through the motions. So is all that pushing? I suppose avoiding that whole thing (not saying anything, not letting the hug happen) would be a 180 but when being in her arms is the absolute best place I can think of in the whole world it s really hard to not do it and not take comfort in it.

She comes home today, gone since the hug Wed afternoon. The last two days especially have been dreadful at best. I've had fun with the kids but having her in my head 24/7 is really getting hard and there is just no relief in sight. And I have to leave for three days starting this evening. We haven't talked at all sine a few minutes on 5hursday, a few text messages. And yesterday, late afternoon, when I hadn't heard from her since early on Friday, I was getting worried because she promised to keep me updated on her progress (lots of driving time and hours away) since she was supposed to be at her sister's I texted there and some activity there with the MIL, lead to a text from my W saying she was fine and would call me today. So, is that another backslide? No idea if the repercussions are negative. Is that a push or is she happy to know I was worried about her? I didn't try to contact her directly because I'm trying to give her space. I had hoped I could just have confirmation from the in-laws that she was fine w/o them contacting her but they didn't know either as it turns out. So again, did all that reult in a push or no big deal? I struggle constantly thinking about the whole thing.

And back today, my anxiety level high for much the same reason. I have no idea at all what to expect from her upon her return - another bomb or talk of R. I'm leaving and so there will be my approach to that also. I just struggle wondering how to be.

Struggle is putting it lightly. Our issues do not add up to divorce, I don't want one, I feel like I have no say, and I'm in a really bad place still with only a month (an eternity) under my belt.

[Coyote]

"I've avoided "I love you" but not entirely, and when she was leaving on this current trip that kind of talk led to a big embrace, she initiated it and I could feel her hugging not just going through the motions. So is all that pushing?"

If she initiated the hug and it was genuine, that's not pushing. The idea behind the 'No I love yous' is not to drive them away with clingyness and pursuit. Clingyness/pursuit such as frequent calling/texting, always trying to hang on to a conversation/meeting with them when they say they gotta go. Another is asking them if, 'they've madeup their mind yet?!' or how about ' What are you doing right now?!' or 'Is there anything I can do to change your mind? Oh please oh please...' (Heck, I'd wanna get away from that, never mind a WAS who is in 'run' mode!)

If you've thrown in the odd ILY and it hasn't done anything bad, sure. However, I'd watch these. Space them out. At that, let her set the pace. (You did here so give yourself a Pat on the back!)

It's just that with these 'ILYs' to a WAS, they have an uncanny tendency to drive the WAS further into the tunnel they're already in. A good part of it is it reminds them of their inability to return it. Again, watch and take note. Use a good dose of common sense here. (See my post above if needed)

Sometimes, often even, we won't see anything for a while. As a rule of thumb use what works, even those changes that seem to work slowly or have a slow start. However, throw out those that have 'negative consequences' to either you and/or her, the situation even. The Last Resort technique in the DB book gives a good explanation on this. Check it out. (Adjust as you see fit.)

"And back today, my anxiety level high..."

Just something I noticed. Have you gone in for a physical checkup lately? When going through something like this it's very easy to let our physical wellness slide. Talk to your family doctor about your situation, the anxiety, any 'odd' things going on with your body. In the early stages of my sitch, I actually had to go on mild levels of anti depressants for a bit. It certainly helped. Also found out my sitch had helped me develop some high blood pressure, argh!

Our bodies take a beating when going through something like this. You've probably heard this before, may even be doing this but I will say it anyway, make sure you're eating right, exercising, taking me time, getting enough sleep (I know, the sleep thing can be hard with this kind of thing at times, often even!)

[stillhopin]

Hi guys,

Over a month. Must be some kind of hurtle. More than anything I'm angry. And I have to say, it feels a whole lot better. I've been db'ing as best I can though not perfectly and there have been some backslides into R and why talks but im getting better. What's most interesting though is that it actually feels better to be angry than all the anxiety and pain. I'm being nice, enjoying the kids and trying to look forward. I'm strongly considering the mwd intensives but not sure I can get her to go but ill try soon when the timing is right. In one of my backslides I had to tell her to stop treating me like you know what, especially in front of the kids. It seems to have worked because she's been pretty nice to me the last day or so. (Turns out that's hard to - just want to hold her) . For now, I'm holding on to a little anger, db'ing, holding out some hope for getting her to a meeting. Thanks everyone.

[Coyote]

No problem Garwayne

"More than anything I'm angry. And I have to say, it feels a whole lot better."

I like this. Sounds like you're getting better. No, you are getting better.

Getting angry about the situation is 'much' better than hopelessness, despair, listlessness, and even fear, go figure. Anger can be good if directed where it needs to go. Just a note here, make sure you don't direct the anger in the wrong place. Don't direct it at W, good friends, and family. You'll be pickin' up pieces for a while if you do! (I did this a couple of times with some close people in the beginning, and even after that. Had to learn penitence and groveling after that. Not a nice skill to learn :()

It's ok to get angry at the situation. Get angry about junk you've been needing to fix about yourself. It's even ok to get angry about W's attitude. Just don't vent on her though. Again, vent elsewhere. (Sure, let her know when she's crossing a line with you. After that, snip it.)

" I've been db'ing as best I can though not perfectly and there have been some backslides"

(Sigh) I know for myself it ended up being a process of 3 steps forward, 2 steps back but I eventually made it up the mountain.

"I'm strongly considering the mwd intensives but not sure I can get her to go but ill try soon when the timing is right."

Present it to her. If she doesn't want to go let her be. Don't even try to convince or cajole her. She has sorting out to do and it will take a while before things are smooth. Just make sure you keep working on making yourself a pinnacle of stability, strength, and just a simply a soft place for her to land on. This will eventually be irresistible for her. Probably about a year or two at least before you can even begin to be in the clear though.

"In one of my backslides I had to tell her to stop treating me like you know what, especially in front of the kids. "

This is a backslide?! I don't think so.

"It seems to have worked because she's been pretty nice to me the last day or so."

One of the reactions to your changes? I would think so. Did you take note of what you did? What spurred this on? Write it out on paper or a word editor if you have to. Sounds clinical but it helps to get it off the mind and on to something where you can see it.

"just want to hold her"

Hang tight.