Putting it back together, but SSM issues linger

[Nblost]

Accuray, I'll provide you with some thoughts this weekend (H is traveling for work and very likely "pleasure" this weekend).

I can see a bit of myself in what I've quickly read about your wife. Even though I've been "LD" with my spouse, I had been tempted in a couple situations by other men (but carefully avoided letting anything happen). I think you are likely facing a combination of her issues and the downward spiral of your marriage.

Hang in there!

[Accuray]

Thanks Nblost, journaling:

W had 2 previous EA's with co-workers. One was with a guy about 7 years younger who had a pregnant wife. He never really went over the line, although they had very frequent call / chat / text sessions at odd hours (what did his wife think?). My W was head over heels "infatuated" with him to use her term for it. That went about 8 months. After that she had the "serious" EA with a different co-worker, married, my age. That one was going physical at the point OM put the brakes on to save his own marriage. To call it an "EA" isn't really fair, as there was kissing and fondling. I was oblivious to both, I knew about both men, but trusted W completely. I would have bet everything I owned that W would not cheat on me.

Needless to say, I'm a bit paranoid about coworkers now. W has a new job. I found out in conversation with a 3rd party that W has gone to lunch a few times with a new co-worker. He's 7 years younger, new baby, married. She mentioned to me last night directly that she had lunch with him yesterday. I must have raised my eyebrows a bit because she started telling me about all his drawbacks. She also used to do that with OM -- "we're just friends, he's married, he has this shortcoming, blah blah blah"

What do I do with this? Ask if I can see her chatlog from work? I guess ignore it.

I have been venting here quite a bit about W. It probably seems more negative than it is. We are truly piecing and working on things, and there are definitely good times. Overall our marriage is better than it's been in years -- it's my state of mind that's not.

Honestly, our biggest challenges now are W's self-esteem issues and my "damage" from the bomb and OM. I have not "zinged" her once or brought it up in any kind of accusatory context. But it's definitely affecting me, it chips away at me every day.

Sex continues to be an issue for me, and I wonder what's wrong with me. I have honestly considered going on stronger AD's hoping it will both lift my mood and knock down my sex drive, but I hate to take them for that reason.

If I go too long without ML, I get "crazy", and not sexually. Here's what happens, when ML does not occur when I would like, it doesn't effect me that much in the moment, so I don't make an issue of it. The next day, I start to have some dark relationship thoughts. By the next day, I start to withdraw and I have to fight to stay engaged with W, hug her, spend quality time etc. without seeming down. By day 3, I'm very dark, thinking about OM, etc.

At this point I start trying to convince myself that I don't need to ML, that I'll be fine without it. In order to keep that going, I NEED to be less physical with W. At that point I can no longer cuddle in bed, sit close to W, etc. She starts to notice this (obviously) and thinks she's done something to make me sad or upset, then she starts to get down despite my reassurances. At that point I have to work even harder to be physically affectionate and keep a positive bearing.

Now I'm really torn up inside, it's taking tremendous effort, and now it's not really about ML -- it's about the effort she's not putting into the relationship, my insecurity about OM, it's like an infection that starts to just taint everything.

Then, once we do ML, it's like the reset button is pushed and everything is happy again.

How do I fix that?

How do I work on me in this regard?

Is this "normal" in any way, or am I off the charts?

--Accuray

[Accuray]

Just to clarify, this doesn't happen every 3 days. It could be up to 10 days between times when I feel I really *need* to ML. It's when it doesn't happen at that point that the cycle described above kicks in.

[Nblost]

Accuray,
Your wife sounds kind of like me. I know you are venting the bad stuff and I'm guessing your wife has some redeeming qualities around being a good wife and mother. I'd try to build her up around the things she is doing well.

Here are a few thoughts:

-Does your wife have close girlfriends? I had lost touch with most of my friends (blaming it on 3 kids and a H who works/travels a lot/moving 2,000 miles). If she doesn't, she likely feels bad about it...so I wouldn't push her to do things with other women (women are all so busy at this stage of life it can be hard to find people to connect with regularly). But, recognize she may be missing getting emotional support and happiness from friends. Maybe there are times when she has chances to do things with other women and you can be more aware of jumping in to help with the kids, etc.

-I'm somewhat insecure underneath a very successful career and life. I've always had a few issues with my body (which my husband thought was insane) and it bothered me when he touched me in certain places or in certain ways. I'd find subtle ways to tell your wife how beautiful and attractive she is.

-Does your wife ever have orgasms? I didn't (through several boyfriends) until I was "on a break" before I met my husband. I focused on seeing if I could bring myself to orgasm...for me, it works well to read erotic stories. I also kind of like porn and get turned on by it. I usually have to bring myself to orgasm when I'm with my husband...but he can get me there sometimes. I don't think it's the end all be all to ML, but if she's never had one or doesn't have them in front of you, I would bet it bothers your wife a lot. I knew I was one of just a couple of my friends who wasn't having orgasms in college and it bugged me. I think those bad feelings then flared up more in my marriage when my H said I was LD and he felt I "just wasn't a sexual person".

-It's great you are putting things back together and I'm not sure how you try to weave in more counseling...but I wonder if your wife would benefit from seeing a sex therapist. Our MC is also a sex therapist and he had me fill out a questionnaire for him on my sexual history. The power of that was that I filled it out and wondered if my answers would highlight how I am "not a sexual person". Nope, our therapist told me I seemed very normal. For some reason, this was very freeing for me to learn. If we can get back to MC, I'm excited to see what he can do to help us.

-I'm trying to survive my H's A right now. I think because I'm deep down so hurt and vulnerable...I'm more sexually charged than ever. (H has noticed this). He hasn't had sex with me in about 6 months and I really miss it. I'm not suggesting you have an affair (please don't!)...but it sounds like you and your wife were starting to establish a routine that somewhat worked for her. I wonder if you could work with a counselor to come up with a way for you to tell her you need more and how serious you are. Also, try to take some of the pressure off like SSM recommends.

-I think the more you can encourage your wife to find herself and do things for her...hopefully she can be happier and build self esteem. I know being a mom can be a sex drive zapper...looks like you guys are in the thick of it like we are.

Not sure if any of this helps, honestly, if my H and I try to reconcile, I think he'll struggle with some of the same things you are. I wouldn't be surprised if we go through low points where I am not feeling good about myself again. I do think going through the "crap" we are going through makes one more open and maybe your wife will eventually be willing to open up and lose more control.

Hang in there!

[Accuray]

Thanks Nblost,

This is super helpful! I really appreciate you taking the time to help me with everything you have going on. I will try to answer your questions below.

I know you are venting the bad stuff and I'm guessing your wife has some redeeming qualities around being a good wife and mother. I'd try to build her up around the things she is doing well.

Yes, she is a wonderful mother and I love her very much, that's why this is so painful for me. I really just want to see her happy, and it's frustrating that I don't have the ability to provide that for her. I'm very attracted to her, I like talking to her. On the occasions when she IS happy life is great. Those times are unfortunately far between.

-Does your wife have close girlfriends? I had lost touch with most of my friends (blaming it on 3 kids and a H who works/travels a lot/moving 2,000 miles). If she doesn't, she likely feels bad about it...so I wouldn't push her to do things with other women (women are all so busy at this stage of life it can be hard to find people to connect with regularly). But, recognize she may be missing getting emotional support and happiness from friends. Maybe there are times when she has chances to do things with other women and you can be more aware of jumping in to help with the kids, etc.

She does not have close girlfriends. She has had difficulty maintaining friendships with other women and I know she does feel badly about that -- funny you guessed. When she does go out with friends I am very supportive with the kids. I truly do try to encourage her to go out and have fun because I want to see her happy! This has obviously backfired on me as she had some bar night hookups on women's weekends in the past, so now it makes me more anxious, but I still encourage her to get out.

-I'm somewhat insecure underneath a very successful career and life. I've always had a few issues with my body (which my husband thought was insane) and it bothered me when he touched me in certain places or in certain ways. I'd find subtle ways to tell your wife how beautiful and attractive she is.

Agreed, although it makes my wife crazy when I compliment her looks. She has a HUGE chip on her shoulder about being appreciated for her looks alone. This morning I told her how good she looked and she shut me down hard. I was thinking "I've been with you for 17 years, we have 3 kids together, and I stayed with you after you cheated on me multiple times -- would I go through that on the basis of looks alone?" -- obviously I didn't say that. I don't know how to be subtle enough not to set her off.

-Does your wife ever have orgasms? I didn't (through several boyfriends) until I was "on a break" before I met my husband. I focused on seeing if I could bring myself to orgasm...for me, it works well to read erotic stories. I also kind of like porn and get turned on by it. I usually have to bring myself to orgasm when I'm with my husband...but he can get me there sometimes. I don't think it's the end all be all to ML, but if she's never had one or doesn't have them in front of you, I would bet it bothers your wife a lot. I knew I was one of just a couple of my friends who wasn't having orgasms in college and it bugged me. I think those bad feelings then flared up more in my marriage when my H said I was LD and he felt I "just wasn't a sexual person".

Right again, she does not have orgasms. She told me she never has with a man and I believe her. She says she can have them when she masturbates, but she only does that about 4 times per year. She claims it does not bother her at all -- not even on her radar. Even talking about sex with her makes her upset. I have asked her multiple times to tell me what feels good, how she likes to be touched, how to make it better for her, etc. She will not say a thing. She gets angry that I ask. That's why I have no chance of getting her to a sex therapist, she's not interested in changing this aspect of herself at all.

-It's great you are putting things back together and I'm not sure how you try to weave in more counseling...but I wonder if your wife would benefit from seeing a sex therapist. Our MC is also a sex therapist and he had me fill out a questionnaire for him on my sexual history. The power of that was that I filled it out and wondered if my answers would highlight how I am "not a sexual person". Nope, our therapist told me I seemed very normal. For some reason, this was very freeing for me to learn. If we can get back to MC, I'm excited to see what he can do to help us.

No chance. I've been reading "Passionate Marriage" which is all about how great married sex can be, how it parallels and reinforces the health of your marriage overall, etc. It's very frustrating that my W is not interested in going down this path with me. She read "The Sex Starved Marriage" for me and has agreed to increase frequency, but she makes it clear that she's doing it "for me" versus with me. When I told her I enjoyed it she says "I'm glad you liked it" versus ever saying that she enjoyed it to, that anything about it was good for her etc. I'm not a selfish guy, I don't know why she's passive aggressive about it.

-I'm trying to survive my H's A right now. I think because I'm deep down so hurt and vulnerable...I'm more sexually charged than ever. (H has noticed this). He hasn't had sex with me in about 6 months and I really miss it. I'm not suggesting you have an affair (please don't!)...but it sounds like you and your wife were starting to establish a routine that somewhat worked for her. I wonder if you could work with a counselor to come up with a way for you to tell her you need more and how serious you are. Also, try to take some of the pressure off like SSM recommends.

Yes, I have tried taking the pressure off. We were doing well for a while but now she's starting to space things out again and is more and more dis-engaging. She won't kiss me as much, no passion, etc. I'm getting to the point where I'm going to insist on counseling. The problem is that whenever I indicate any dissatisfaction with anything she really beats herself up and makes me feel terrible.

-I think the more you can encourage your wife to find herself and do things for her...hopefully she can be happier and build self esteem. I know being a mom can be a sex drive zapper...looks like you guys are in the thick of it like we are.

Not sure if any of this helps, honestly, if my H and I try to reconcile, I think he'll struggle with some of the same things you are. I wouldn't be surprised if we go through low points where I am not feeling good about myself again. I do think going through the "crap" we are going through makes one more open and maybe your wife will eventually be willing to open up and lose more control.

Hang in there!

Thank you so much Nblost. I'm really at a loss for how to go forward with some of this. I realize I cannot change my wife, and that most of this is out of my control. At the same time, I've made so many changes in my approach to the marriage, it would be great to see a little effort on the other side. I really think she'd be a happier person overall if she would engage with me, but so far, she's unwilling.

Any other insight or suggestions would be most welcome! I'm willing to do whatever it takes.

Accuray

[Nblost]

Hmm, she sounds challenging. It sounds like she could use her own counseling to work through some of these issues. Honestly, it took my H's affair to get me in for counseling (although I did the sex therapist before I found out about the A)

It seems odd she is having affairs if she is so non-sexual. Have you asked what she gets out of these EAs or what she likes about herself in the EAs? I'm not sure if you guys are still discussing or if that would be opening old wounds. I guess I am pretty much living in the wound right now!

I would like you to find a way to make yourself more attractive/mysterious to your wife. Although, not sure if she would take the bait. I just wonder if she has any competitiveness in her if she thought she was at risk of losing you. If you are just starting to piece things together, probably a bad time to rock the boat.

I did like how SSM tried to suggest tying a happy sex life to things your wife values like the kids.

Also, at one point my H had a pile of sex books and it intimidated me...I felt like there was more to our problems than just sex.

[Accuray]

Yes Nblost, she is challenging! She could definitely use her own counseling, she was going to an IC to help her to decide whether or not to divorce me. When the bomb dropped, she recommended that I just go to the same IC. The IC was shocked (!) that W was not coming back as she felt she had so much to work on.

It seems odd she is having affairs if she is so non-sexual. Have you asked what she gets out of these EAs or what she likes about herself in the EAs? I'm not sure if you guys are still discussing or if that would be opening old wounds. I guess I am pretty much living in the wound right now!

I'm not sure she's so non-sexual, from my reading LD is usually not caused by one factor even if that factor seems to fit. It's a mix of things including how she feels about herself, how she feels about me, the relationship, the kids, etc.

IC told me that she has real self-esteem issues and being pursued makes her feel better. I'm a bit confused by her "one night" bar night hookups. She writes that off to too much to drink, but come on, I don't buy that. She claims she had the wherewithal to prevent it from going to ML, but was drunk enough to kiss? I don't know.

What she got out of the EA was I believe connection, initally being pursued, and then the thrill of pursuing. At the time I believe she was convinced that OM was more compatible with her. I think she felt less competitive with him. She liked that he had no expectations. She said that it did not go PA because she didn't want it to, but from what I read when I was snooping, she was pushing it that way and OM got cold feet because his first priority was his W (he was cake eating).

I would like you to find a way to make yourself more attractive/mysterious to your wife. Although, not sure if she would take the bait. I just wonder if she has any competitiveness in her if she thought she was at risk of losing you. If you are just starting to piece things together, probably a bad time to rock the boat.

Good call! I wonder about this every day. Both my IC's recommended pulling back and being less affectionate / less expressive. Michelle says that a relationship is like a teeter-totter, when one gives more the other gives less. I get that, and I can do it.

Here's what I'm having the challenge with -- when I pull back, she freaks out. She will break down in a crying fit and say she's not able to meet my needs. She tells me I'm unlucky to be with her, etc. Instead of pursuing and feeling good about it, she doesn't pursue and instead just breaks down.

At that point I feel like I need to reassure her and build her back up, tell her everything is ok. If I was asking for something I get to the point where I tell her I can do without.
She has hairtrigger feelings of inadequacy, so pulling back has not worked.

The only other thing I can do is let her break down and NOT pick her back up, just say "I'm sorry you feel that way, but you're not meeting my needs" or something similar and let her deal with it. I'm afraid she'll withdraw and get angry / passive aggressive instead of stepping up. She's done that in the past.

She really seems like she'll do about *anything* to avoid stepping up. She's stubborn as hell, and it's almost just knowing I would like something is enough to make her not do it.

I really don't know how to negotiate this at all. I suppose if things continue as they are I'll eventually have "the conversation" with her, and at that point I guess I'll need to be ready to go if she doesn't step up. I don't know what else to do.

What tears at me is reading "Passionate Marriage" which really espouses the ability to "self-soothe" and not rely upon your partner for your emotional well-being. It says that relying on your partner for a "reflected sense of self" is destructive to your marriage, so the other thing I wrestle with is if I just need to back off, take what I get and be happy with it. I'm just not sure how to get there either.

I did like how SSM tried to suggest tying a happy sex life to things your wife values like the kids.

Don't remember this, remind me!

Also, at one point my H had a pile of sex books and it intimidated me...I felt like there was more to our problems than just sex.

Definitely, ironically sex is the area she HAS stepped up in terms of frequency, but like I say, she's dialing it back down again.

I have tried everything in terms of technique, toys, etc. to no avail. I eventually realized that was not the way to make things improve.

Accuray

[Nblost]

I looked in SSM (have it on Kindle) and couldn't find it...but I thought there was an example in there about a H whose wife wasn't into improving their marriage/sex life. He created a link between their marriage being happy and their kids being happy. That made the wife more motivated to work on things. Maybe it's in one of my other advice books.

I wonder if you should try letting your wife break down when you tell her your needs aren't being met and not comfort her. It may be worth a try before you get to the point where you are having a last ultimatum conversation or are tempted by an affair. Maybe she needs to see you are more serious and she'll look into more counseling or try harder. (I can see though if you are just starting to reconcile, that may feel too risky and so maybe you still wait awhile)

I do think the more you can work on being happy yourself, you'll be more attractive to your W and you may also be less needy. I'm not sure how much GAL-ing you did prior to reconciling...but was there something you were doing more of back when your wife was trying harder and decided to reconcile?

Honestly, I'm happy for you that she is staying with you for now...you have a good chance. You are miles ahead of me!

I can see toys/techniques not working...for me, I enjoyed some of that, but some of the suggestions by my H kind of felt like the sex books...too much pressure and too focused on just the sex part of our relationship. In hindsight, a big error on my part...but I think we both share the blame for not communicating well.

Hang in there!

[Nblost]

Also, just read a bit more about your sitch...it is too bad you didn't find a MC you liked and that your W would go to with you. I would think having a MC guide you through the healing process and work through issues would be helpful.

[Accuray]

Thanks Nblost, I can't tell you how helpful this is:

I wonder if you should try letting your wife break down when you tell her your needs aren't being met and not comfort her. It may be worth a try before you get to the point where you are having a last ultimatum conversation or are tempted by an affair. Maybe she needs to see you are more serious and she'll look into more counseling or try harder. (I can see though if you are just starting to reconcile, that may feel too risky and so maybe you still wait awhile)

I will try this next time. It's going to be hard for me because I am so driven to provide happiness. I agree, this is better than letting it get to ultimatum. I'm always the one to apologize first, maybe I should try not doing that.

I don't believe I would ever be tempted by an affair, I'm not wired that way, I couldn't live with myself. I don't give out an "available" vibe, and if something starts going towards the line I shut it down. I really don't see that it would solve any problems for me, it would just contribute more.

I do think the more you can work on being happy yourself, you'll be more attractive to your W and you may also be less needy. I'm not sure how much GAL-ing you did prior to reconciling...but was there something you were doing more of back when your wife was trying harder and decided to reconcile?

Yes, I am generally happy, but I'm too influenced by my wife's mood swings. If I wake up happy and come downstairs and she's yelling at the kids and there is a black cloud over her head, then I feel badly all day too. That's my issue to work on. I have to let that roll off me.

GAL is interesting in my case, my wife's main complaint historically was that I would GAL too much. I had tons of hobbies and interests. Part of reconciling was jettisoning 95% of that and focusing on quality time with W. I think initially she really appreciated the change, but now it's perhaps feeling more routine and therefore less appreciated.

I think W also felt she wanted more connection and intimacy, but now that she's getting it, she doesn't want as much as she thought she did. I think there is some of "be careful what you wish for" going on too.

Historically I would go out and do all kinds of activities, either alone, with friends, or with the kids. Coming back happy didn't really lift W's mood at all, she'd get passive aggressive about it. I remember many times taking the kids camping or skiing for the weekend when W refused to go and coming home with a car loaded with gear, suitcases etc. I would walk in the house and W would be watching TV or talking on the phone and wouldn't move as I unloaded and put away for 45 minutes, started the kids' laundry, etc. Passive aggressive! In my situation I felt like I needed to anti-GAL.

W doesn't seem to get intrigued when I get more mysterious, she just gets either withdrawn or passive aggressive.

It is too bad you didn't find a MC you liked and that your W would go to with you. I would think having a MC guide you through the healing process and work through issues would be helpful.

Yes, I would *really* like to go back to MC, particularly someone with sex therapy training. How do people find a good MC? It's not really a Google or yellow pages type of thing, I'm not sure how to find a good one trained in DB type philosophy.

Accuray