Maybe I am crazy. Last night when we went to bed my sister's OM came up, he had requested to connect to me on LinkedIn. My W asked how I felt about him. I told her that I didn't think what he had done was right, that he had pursued a married woman with young children and effectively broke up a marriage. I said that I'd be polite with him because my sister chooses to be with him now, but that doesn't mean I will ever accept how they came together. My W argued that my sister had accepted his overtures and kept it going, etc etc. Looking back on it, I heard her defending her own OM -- maybe she was, maybe she wasn't but it made me crazy anxious. I tried to gracefully end the conversation, then went and took an AD pill because I couldn't sleep at that point.
This morning we were talking and she said her friend who is also married and is a serial cheater was sad about the Penn State situation because she's a big fan. I said "really, that's what she's sad about? I don't understand why people get so attached to sports teams." That set my wife off telling me that I was wrong for not understanding why people like sports so much, and why it was OK for her friend to be sad. I heard my W telling me that the way I was feeling about it was wrong.
W and I discussed it later in the morning, and she told me that everyone is entitled to their feelings, and that I was saying that her friend's feelings were wrong. I told her that wasn't the point, her friend wasn't here -- I wasn't going to talk to her friend. I was sharing my view on it with my W.
Obviously lots of subtext there. I think the root issue is that W has never said she felt what she did was wrong. She was sorry for how it made me feel, but felt justified. That's been simmering with me. Any time I hear her talking about infidelity in a way that portrays it as OK, it makes me angry. Don't know what to do about that.
--Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Your wife sounds so depressed. Its kind of sad. She is definitely picking fights with you.
You need to help HER GAL without telling her you are doing it. Help her find the things outside the bedroom that she is passionate about and support her in doing them. She needs to find her passion then find herself then find you smiling.
Hang in there.
---- M 39 H 35 D5,D4 M 4 T 9 ILYBNILWY 5/18/11 Left 7/11/11 Divorced 12/1/13
Good advice BklynMom! She has had trouble maintaining friendships and I know that bothers her a lot.
A couple years ago she started going to church out of the blue and taking the kids with her. We had never gone to church from the time we met. She's since become passionate about the community aspects of it and has take an active role.
Initially I tried going with her but it really wasn't for me, and I would grumble about the financial and time commitments she was making. I stopped going and would spend the time doing my own thing.
Since "the bomb", I've tried going back with an open mind, and trying to be supportive. My IC told me to stop going because now I'm not doing enough for myself, and I could use that time for me. Based on your advice, I think I'm going to disregard that and keep going!
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
You can support her church involvement without going yourself by picking out the things that are good about it and smiling and showing your happiness about those. You don't even have to accept it if she makes commitments that she can't keep, or commitments that obligate the family to do things the rest of you can't do or don't want to do. You just look for the things that you and she both think are good about her role in the church and show her your happiness about those things. It doesn't have to be big, overt gestures, either. The grumbling you mention as a problem probably wasn't composed of grand gestures of disapproval, right? It was probably offhand comments and body language. Yet it had an impact. Positive but small, offhand comments will build up the same way.
I haven't been around for months . . . . have you sat down with your wife lately and told her that you feel lousy because you get the impression that she thinks her affair was justified, although regrettable? If so, what did she say? If not, I think it's likely that nothing else will help much until you clear that air.
have you sat down with your wife lately and told her that you feel lousy because you get the impression that she thinks her affair was justified, although regrettable? If so, what did she say?
Yes, I did get to the point that I couldn't keep it in any longer and had that discussion with her about a month ago. She once again reinforced that she's sorry for how it made me feel, but argued her point again about why it was justified. I left that conversation understanding that I was not mis-interpreting how she felt.
She felt that since she was already checked out of the marriage, and on a path to get divorced, that it wasn't really a betrayal in terms of where her committments were. She also felt that it was necessary to go through that to help her pull the trigger on asking for divorce, otherwise she would have been consigning herself to more years of unhappiness. Based on my reading, her view of it lines up with an "exit affair" where WAW needs the crisis to make a decision. That's I believe why she doesn't regret it and feels it was justified.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
I've been reading "Passionate Marriage" -- great book, but challenging in many ways.
As I posted above, I would like to have more passion and connection in our marriage. I had assumed up to this point that "who wouldn't want that?" and that it was more or less a universal goal.
The section of the book I read last night talks about the fact that the level of passion and intimacy currently in your marriage is exactly the "right" negotiated level based on what the two of you can tolerate.
Attaining more connection and intimacy can be painful, because it requires opening up more, and becoming more vulnerable. That journey requires work and potentially pain, but once you come out the other side, the rewards should be significant.
The other thing I read about is the notion of being "chosen". Often when we marry, one partner "chooses" the other, or does the bulk of the pursuing. This sets a power dynamic that persists through the marriage, where the pursuing partner doesn't feel "chosen" and is constantly trying to get that feeling. This translates to low desire -- the LD partner is the one with the "control" because they set the rules for frequency, level of intimacy, etc.
My revelation is that my W does not *want* more intimacy. She wanted more than zero, but she doesn't want more than she has now. I was talking to my IC about the fact that I was much more at peace when I was withdrawn. I feel like if I'm going to be in, I want to be "all in", but my W does not feel the same way. My IC says that the pain from that is the cost of playing the game.
As I mentioned above, my W read SSM for me. She did take it to heart, and we have been ML average 1.5 times per week, which has been GREAT. Initially she was "there" with me, but she has been progressively sliding away. At this point, we haven't ML in about 9 days. Last night she was grumpy, and then we watched a movie together and she was falling asleep.
When we went to bed, she said "do you want to ML?". Of course inside I was screaming "YES", but then realized that I do not want to ML with someone who is falling asleep and not "there" with me. I told her she seemed so tired and she said "do you think that will ever change?" Then she said "maybe tomorrow, we're not supposed to go this long"
That really bothered me, and I woke up early thinking about it. I don't want this to be a treadmill that you have no interest in riding but feel you have to. When MWD talks about the LD partner "stepping up" in SSM, I don't just interpret that to mean frequency, I interpret that to mean effort.
Therefore, instead of hearing my W say "we're not supposed to go this long", I'd much rather hear her say "we're not supposed to try so little".
--Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
It's harder for you because you've agreed (not for bad reasons) to allow her to do all the pursuing, and she's not pursuing--I completely understand that she sounds grudging and apathetic to you when she talks about what you're supposed to do. That's not an attempt to turn someone on and get them to have sex with you.
On the other hand, if you want sex to get any better, I wouldn't turn it down unless YOU don't feel like it. Let her deal with whether she feels like it and what her reasons are for now. You decide whether you want to do it and give the answer you want to give.
It's interesting that you're reading Passionate Marriage. I posted that last comment after reading only the second page. Now that I've read the first page of your thread, I wanted to ask you about PM. Specifically, have you read the parts about people who avoid intimacy because they "don't want to want" someone? That's the first thing your wife's approach to marriage made me think of. She seems scared to need you or even want you--like it's safer to be self-contained. From your writing I can't imagine that ever working for you.
On the other hand, it's normal when you try to fix a marriage to feel like you're the only one making an effort, maybe the only one who cares at all. It's fairly normal to be TOLD that the other person doesn't care about all this, and even that it's weird that you do.
Specifically, have you read the parts about people who avoid intimacy because they "don't want to want" someone? That's the first thing your wife's approach to marriage made me think of. She seems scared to need you or even want you--like it's safer to be self-contained.
Yes, I agree (and my wife agrees) that she has issues. She's not happy with herself, doesn't feel loveable, etc., but she's not willing to do anything about it.
I fear that she feels competitive with me, and because I'm more energetic and motivated, she feels that I make her feel worse about herself, like she's not measuring up (she has used those words with me). Sometimes it feels like the nicer I am to her the worse she feels. It's like there is an unspoken expectation to reciprocate, and she doesn't want to do it so feels badly. I'm not looking for reciprocation -- I take pleasure in being giving. I'm just looking for more intimacy and connection. I believe that's why OM was such a nice escape, he was more low-key, and didn't expect anything of her really. Although the guy is gone, I still feel I'm living with his ghost to some degree, but maybe I'm just paranoid.
Assuming my W is not willing to open up to me, or does not "want to want" me per PM, what do I DO about it? The book is all about couples who want to work together. If one does not want to do the work, should I just give up on pushing things forward and try to get comfortable with status quo?
Originally Posted By: SillyOldBear
From your writing I can't imagine that ever working for you.
I missed the context for that remark. Can you explain?
Originally Posted By: SillyOldBear
Oh, and your counselor situation sounds terrible. WTF was that counselor thinking? Did you know you were going to the same IC your wife had used?
Yeah, when W dropped the bomb on me, she wasn't feeling in a very consoling mood so recommended that I seek IC. Since I was in pretty bad shape (insomnia, dry heaving fits, etc.) she suggested I just go see her IC.
I saw a couple advantages to that (1) the IC would have all the backstory walking in so I wouldn't have to do 2 sessions to just explain what was going on and (2) the IC would have my W's perspective on me, so if I had blinders on or was being unreasonable, she could call "BS" on me. I think in the right scenario that could have worked to my advantage.
As it turns out, when IC got my side of things, she was personally angry at W for putting one over on her, not letting her in, and not telling her about the affair or OM. (Those were fairly important details to keep to yourself). She said that W is extremely private, compartmentalizes, and in her 20+ years of practice no one had ever deceived her like that.
Unfortunately, IC wasn't able to get beyond that, and spent the next few sessions sharing her diagnosis of W, telling me she was a bad person, that she'll surely cheat on me again, etc. I would walk in there feeling reasonably stable, like I understood W's rationale for what she did, etc., and IC would pull the rug out. I'd leave feeling like I was married to Mrs. Evil and it made me feel horrible. I do not believe IC was right, as both old IC and new IC seem to be reading out of the same textbook about people who have affairs. It's not that simple.
After two sessions of telling IC to forget about W and talk about me, I was done. I took a break, kept going with DB coach, and eventually found a new IC. This one is not as easy to talk to, a bit more judgemental, but hopefully will be more effective. Having switched it's clear to me how important it is to have a great IC versus an adequate one, and I still don't think I've found that.
--Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Sad today -- thinking about W and OM. Thinking about how happy she was about that relationship and how passive she is in ours.
At one point she told her friend that she needed to change her circumstances to be happy.
Her friend told her that all the happiness she needed was available to her, she just had to choose it.
She disagreed -- she said are you happier living on your own than you would be living with your mother?
Ugh, I'm not happy. I've been trying to pretend, but I'm not. I want this relationship to work so badly, but I'm not happy. I can't change W, but I have changed and W hasn't come along.
Is this WAS talk?
Confused....
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
